# Transgendered person kicked out of a gender divided bathhouse/spa **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777 "2013-01-01T21:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/241 "2013-01-04T04:17:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > IMO, if someone wants to place limitations on another persons actions or movement, they need to provide an argument for the restriction that’s significantly stronger than the other person’s reasons for wanting to do the restricted thing. If both reasons are equally valid, the person who wants to restrict someone else’s actions loses. So if a cis male is equally uncomfortable using the men’s locker room, should he also be permitted to use the women’s so that his movements are not restricted? Because I don’t see how you can quantify discomfort and say the cis man’s discomfort is less valid than the transwoman’s. Maybe the cis man is gay and has exactly the same fear of assault in the men’s locker room as the transwoman. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/242 "2013-01-04T04:28:06Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > You said > “So should we as a society cater to peoples’ irrational emotional response to such harmless things as being around someone with different genitalia nude?” > > Presumably, the reason transpeople do not want to use the locker room, spa etc used by those with the same genitalia because the transpeople have an emotional response to being around someone with the _same_ genitalia nude. Why is one emotional response rational and something we should cater to while the other is not? Uh… what? The emotional response isn’t about what’s in anyone’s pants, it’s about not wanting to use the changing room inappropriate to our gender. A transwoman has just as much right to use the female facilities as does a cis woman. I bet a cis woman would be extremely unhappy if she was told “we think you’re too manly to be in here, to to the men’s room” too. @ WhyNot: how is that drama? The guy is right, he has every right to use the same showers as all the other men. Being offered, or rather, since they weren’t really making it a choice, forced, to use a private shower is still discrimination, even though some people might prefer a private shower. @ Brickbacon: I’m going to put you on ignore. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve said now that the comparison to racial issues is perfectly valid, and since it’s a matter of opinion, as opposed to objective, you really don’t get to insist I’m wrong. @ Una: The 1 in 12 figure comes from the person who ran the Transgender Roadmap website. Apparently the page is down now, but it was from 1999, so that’s understandable. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/243 "2013-01-04T04:40:53Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > So if a cis male is equally uncomfortable using the men’s locker room, should he also be permitted to use the women’s so that his movements are not restricted? Because I don’t see how you can quantify discomfort and say the cis man’s discomfort is less valid than the transwoman’s. Maybe the cis man is gay and has exactly the same fear of assault in the men’s locker room as the transwoman. I don’t have a good answer to that. But the other side of that coin is, if I can have a trans person thrown out of a locker room because seeing his bits makes me uncomfortable, why can’t I have a cis person thrown out of a locker room because his back hair makes me uncomfortable? I mean, other than the fact that there are a lot more cultural taboos around sex and gender than there are around body hair, of course. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/244 "2013-01-04T04:51:26Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Uh… what? The emotional response isn’t about what’s in anyone’s pants, it’s about not wanting to use the changing room inappropriate to our gender. It’s an emotional response nonetheless and is neither more nor less rational than the emotional response of a cis woman who doesn’t want to be naked in front of people with penises. “Emotional” is pretty much the opposite of “rational”. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/245 "2013-01-04T05:02:01Z")
Yes, it is. It’s perfectly rational to expect to be treated as your correct gender and not be discriminated against. I can’t imagine why you’d think an irrational urge to discriminate is equal to being offended and miserable about being discriminated against. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/246 "2013-01-04T05:04:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t have a good answer to that. But the other side of that coin is, if I can have a trans person thrown out of a locker room because seeing his bits makes me uncomfortable, why can’t I have a cis person thrown out of a locker room because his back hair makes me uncomfortable? > > I mean, other than the fact that there are a lot more cultural taboos around sex and gender than there are around body hair, of course. Well there’s that, and the closely-related facts that 1) of the twenty people in the locker room, you would most likely be the only one uncomfortable getting naked in front of the hairy person while eighteen or nineteen of the women in the locker room would feel uncomfortable getting naked in front of a person with a penis. 2) We don’t normally divide locker rooms by hairy or non-hairy backs , so the cis person with a hairy back is not actually violating a norm. We do divide locker rooms ,etc by genitalia - no one would ever tell a cis person to use the other locker room because he looked too feminine or she looked too manly. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/247 "2013-01-04T05:09:02Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > We do divide locker rooms ,etc by genitalia - no one would ever tell a cis person to use the other locker room because he looked too feminine or she looked too manly. Uh, really really no. Unless I’ve just not been to any of the places where they grope you before telling you which room to use. There IS no general policy regarding what the definition of female is for the purposes of what changing room you should use. That’s pretty much what this entire conversation has been about… ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/248 "2013-01-04T05:16:33Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Yes, it is. It’s perfectly rational to expect to be treated as your correct gender and not be discriminated against. I can’t imagine why you’d think an irrational urge to discriminate is equal to being offended and miserable about being discriminated against. I see, so you expect tolerance but don’t expect to show any. If I’m uncomfortable getting naked in front of people with penises, you can’t simply come up with a reason why I should tolerate it anyway. No, I must not only be irrational, but my irrationality is not limited to not wanting to be naked in front of penis-having people.I actively want to discriminate against you. You don’t show much tolerance for transgendered people either > [@](#): > > having what I am conflated with transgender is the most horrifically offensive thing imaginable to me. Not just incorrect, horrifically offensive. Very tolerant of you. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/249 "2013-01-04T05:17:36Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > @ Una: The 1 in 12 figure comes from the person who ran the Transgender Roadmap website. Apparently the page is down now, but it was from 1999, so that’s understandable. The site is up now, and I can’t find any 1 in 12 reference. Even if it shows such, it’s in error. Please see here, which debunks the 1 in 12 myth. [Nonreligious Questions](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/05/murder-statistics-of-transgender-people/) Edited: to cut to the chase, the 1 in 12 stat is probably a mis-stating of something along the lines of the following (from the link above): > [@](#): > > The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs (NCAVP) began to collect data concerning attacks upon trans-people in 1995. While NCAVP documented only 69 such attacks in 1995 (2% of their entire sample), they believe that violence against trans-people is pervasive and grossly underreported (NCAVP, 1995). NCAVP could not draw any definite conclusions because of the small sample size. However, they did find that while trans-people made up only 2% of their entire sample, trans-people made up 16% of all murder victims. For the most part, these incidents either go unreported or are misreported as anti-gay/lesbian incidents. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/250 "2013-01-04T05:21:57Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I see, so you expect tolerance but don’t expect to show any. If I’m uncomfortable getting naked in front of people with penises, you can’t simply come up with a reason why I should tolerate it anyway. No, I must not only be irrational, but my irrationality is not limited to not wanting to be naked in front of penis-having people.I actively want to discriminate against you. You don’t show much tolerance for transgendered people either > > Not just incorrect, horrifically offensive. Very tolerant of you. First paragraph is beyond idiotic. Your discomfort with my genital status is and should be irrelevant; trying to make me do anything different because of it IS discrimination. As for being offended by being lumped in with transgenders: that’s not intolerance. I don’t care what transgenders want to do. I only care that people know the difference between transsexual and transgender, and don’t treat us like we’re part of the same group. @ Una: I can only find references to the page on Roadmap in other places, so I assume the page it was on is gone now. However, the Human Rights Campaign apparently cited it at one point, and from a quick google search I can see it (and Kay Brown mentioned as the source of the statistic) in quite a few articles discussing this. I’m not going to argue if the numbers don’t add up, all I know is that’s the statistic I learned. Perhaps it’s based on some kind of metric Kay decided was more favourable to trans people for shock value, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/251 "2013-01-04T05:27:09Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Uh, really really no. Unless I’ve just not been to any of the places where they grope you before telling you which room to use. > > There IS no general policy regarding what the definition of female is for the purposes of what changing room you should use. That’s pretty much what this entire conversation has been about… No, the conversation has been about whether there should be exceptions to the norm , or about whether the norm should be different , or whether there should be any segregation at all. No one else has said there is an expectation on the part of the general public to see _expect_ to see people without penises in the men’s locker room or people with penises in the women’s ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/252 "2013-01-04T05:31:11Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > As for being offended by being lumped in with transgenders: that’s not intolerance. I don’t care what transgenders want to do. I only care that people know the difference between transsexual and transgender, and don’t treat us like we’re part of the same group. That would be communicated by saying “Transexual and transgender aren’t the same thing and here are the differences” or some such thing. Not by saying " the most horrifically offensive thing imaginable to me" ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/253 "2013-01-04T05:34:59Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > No, the conversation has been about whether there should be exceptions to the norm , or about whether the norm should be different , or whether there should be any segregation at all. No one else has said there is an expectation on the part of the general public to see _expect_ to see people without penises in the men’s locker room or people with penises in the women’s Exactly. The conversation has about what the norm should be, because there IS no established rule. You made the sweeping statement that “we do divide locker rooms etc by genitalia”. Except we don’t. No one checks you at the door to make sure you’re using the male room if you have a penis. Which room does a guy who lost his penis in an accident or to disease use? The men’s. So why would you treat a trans man, who is just a normal man who suffered an accident during their formation rather than as an adult, differently? ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/254 "2013-01-04T05:37:29Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > No, the conversation has been about whether there should be exceptions to the norm , or about whether the norm should be different , or whether there should be any segregation at all. No one else has said there is an expectation on the part of the general public to see _expect_ to see people without penises in the men’s locker room or people with penises in the women’s Exactly. The conversation has about what the norm should be, because there IS no established rule. You made the sweeping statement that “we do divide locker rooms etc by genitalia”. Except we don’t. No one checks you at the door to make sure you’re using the male room if you have a penis. Which room does a guy who lost his penis in an accident or to disease use? The men’s. So why would you treat a trans man, who is just a normal man who suffered an accident during their formation rather than as an adult, differently? As for why I’m offended; I couldn’t have made it clearer. “Personally having what I am conflated with transgender is the most horrifically offensive thing imaginable to me.” EDIT: sorry, my edit was over the 5 minute limit and was automatically made into a repeat post. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/255 "2013-01-04T05:39:18Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Well there’s that, and the closely-related facts that 1) of the twenty people in the locker room, you would most likely be the only one uncomfortable getting naked in front of the hairy person while eighteen or nineteen of the women in the locker room would feel uncomfortable getting naked in front of a person with a penis. 2) We don’t normally divide locker rooms by hairy or non-hairy backs , so the cis person with a hairy back is not actually violating a norm. We do divide locker rooms ,etc by genitalia - no one would ever tell a cis person to use the other locker room because he looked too feminine or she looked too manly. Like I said, “other than the fact that there are a lot more cultural taboos around sex and gender than there are around body hair.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/256 "2013-01-04T05:39:59Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > As for why I’m offended; I couldn’t have made it clearer. “Personally having what I am conflated with transgender is the most horrifically offensive thing imaginable to me.” That’s… not especially clear. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/257 "2013-01-04T05:46:15Z")
I don’t get how you could infer discrimination from that. I said I’m offended and don’t want to be conflated with them, I didn’t say I don’t think crossdressing should be allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/258 "2013-01-04T05:46:36Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > HOOOLEEEEE SHIIIIIIT > > Well, here’s what we all get for speculatin’. [I found a news report about it.](http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/lgbt/Trans-man-hits-Niles-spa-with-discrimination-complaint/40762.html) > > Transman, not woman. > > Offered private shower. > > Refused. > > Filing suit. > > Playing the racial segregation equivalency card. > > No, I don’t know him. Yes, it appears drama llama was the correct answer. I don’t have a problem going back there. > > Thanks, all. It’s been real. Sounds to me like there’s a genuine question of law at stake, and the gentleman in question has offered himself up as a test case to figure out exactly how far the law protects the rights of transexuals. A bit tough on the spa, and I do feel a bit sorry for them, but they did make the wrong call (if someone had a problem sharing a shower area with a transman, why not offer the complainer the private shower stall?), and may have been in actual violation of the law. Good for Mr. Pine for being willing to take the hit on this - his life is going to be made exponentially more hellish as a result of the publicity around this case. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/259 "2013-01-04T05:52:43Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > I don’t get how you could infer discrimination from that. I said I’m offended and don’t want to be conflated with them, I didn’t say I don’t think crossdressing should be allowed. I didn’t say anything about discrimination. You just said, “I find the comparison offensive because I find the comparison offensive.” That does not do much in the way of explaining anything at all. But since you brought it up… If I said that being mistaken for a black man was the most horrifically offensive thing I could imagine, would you honestly not interpret that as indicating that I harbor a fairly strong degree of racial hostility? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/260 "2013-01-04T06:03:14Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > I’m not going to argue if the numbers don’t add up, all I know is that’s the statistic I learned. Perhaps it’s based on some kind of metric Kay decided was more favourable to trans people for shock value, I don’t know. Not to belabour the point, but transpeople need facts, not fiction, in order to fight, and that’s what I’m posting. The murder rate differential is still shockingly high, and doesn’t need a 1 in 12 to be such. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=14)