# Transgendered person kicked out of a gender divided bathhouse/spa **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777 "2013-01-01T21:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/261 "2013-01-04T06:05:07Z")
Doreen was the one who thought I was discriminating. For your question; sure I would interpret that as racial hostility. However, that’d be because as we know, skin colour doesn’t make two people all that different. The differences between a transsexual and a crossdresser however are many and important: for example, the fact one is a woman with a medical condition which makes her look like a man in a dress and the other is a man in a dress. > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Not to belabour the point, but transpeople need facts, not fiction, in order to fight, and that’s what I’m posting. The murder rate differential is still shockingly high, and doesn’t need a 1 in 12 to be such. Agreed. I posted the 1 in 12 statistic because I believed it was well documented to be true, not for shock value. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/262 "2013-01-04T06:08:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But since you brought it up… If I said that being mistaken for a black man was the most horrifically offensive thing I could imagine, would you honestly not interpret that as indicating that I harbor a fairly strong degree of racial hostility? You probably know it, but may not be as immersed in it as I…there is a “pecking order” among the trans\* communities. I hate the whole concept of such, but it exists. Typically, it’s transsexual and transgender women being very offended at being compared with crossdressers and transvestites, as opposed to a transsexual-transgender schism. Such does exist in my area, but only to a very, very minor extent, and without much heat to said metaphorical fire. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/263 "2013-01-04T06:10:10Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > For your question; sure I would interpret that as racial hostility. However, that’d be because as we know, skin colour doesn’t make two people all that different. The differences between a transsexual and a crossdresser however are many and important: for example, the fact one is a woman with a medical condition which makes her look like a man in a dress and the other is a man in a dress. That’s an extraordinarily weak justification. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/264 "2013-01-04T06:13:23Z")
In what way? Wanting people to recognise that I am not similar to transgender people is something I’d think anyone could understand. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/265 "2013-01-04T06:23:05Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > In what way? Wanting people to recognise that I am not similar to transgender people is something I’d think anyone could understand. I think Comrade Miller is positing that the difference between transgender people and transsexuals, as the two are commonly defined by the APA, is not so great that it should justify such strong emotion at one being mistaken for the other. But it seems that you define transgender a bit differently, so your emotion may be justified. Perhaps that is where the difference lies? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/266 "2013-01-04T06:26:24Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > In what way? Wanting people to recognise that I am not similar to transgender people is something I’d think anyone could understand. Sure, but the jump from there to “most horrifically offensive thing I can imagine” is rather extreme. On edit: What Apparatchik **Persson** said. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/267 "2013-01-04T06:31:52Z")
I don’t define transgender any differently from most people, with the exception of not including “transsexual” in the list of people to whom the word transgender refers. The fundamental fact that engaging in behaviour typically considered appropriate to your gender is NOT trans-gender behaviour is self evident, and that is what a transsexual does. A transsexual CAN also be transgender (I’ve known a trans man who was also a drag queen) but most of us just go about the business of living like a typical person of our gender. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with what transgender people do. I’m saying transsexuals don’t do it so considering the two related is just plain incorrect. That’s why I have such strong emotion: a ridiculously incorrect premise is being treated like fact, even by people who should know much better. @ Miller: as you can no doubt tell, I feel extremely strongly about this. I feel like I’ve explained why to the best of my ability. If you can’t see why I’m so offended then I really don’t know what to say at this point. Let’s just drop it. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/268 "2013-01-04T06:32:01Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > FWIW I think “cis\*” is awkward to say IRL, and _seems_ somewhat new-agey and contrived (despite it being around for a couple of decades or so) but it can make online discussions easier (less typing). And easier to follow! When having a conversation about gender identity and use of facilities, if someone is referring to a man in the woman’s locker room, it helps to know if they mean a transman or a cisman. Since both are men, saying “man” in this context isn’t very clear. Outside of a discussion on transgender issues, “cis-” is probably not a very necessary term. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/269 "2013-01-04T06:32:08Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > You probably know it, but may not be as immersed in it as I…there is a “pecking order” among the trans\* communities. I hate the whole concept of such, but it exists. Typically, it’s transsexual and transgender women being very offended at being compared with crossdressers and transvestites, as opposed to a transsexual-transgender schism. Such does exist in my area, but only to a very, very minor extent, and without much heat to said metaphorical fire. I’ve picked up a bit of that, yeah, mostly since met my bf. He used to organize a big trans conference on the east coast, the name of which completely escapes me. He’s got some good war stories. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/270 "2013-01-04T06:32:15Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’ve never really gone to a public spa/sauna while in the U.S. (I’ve been in small private ones), but when in Europe I went to them and they were unisex. Both naked men and women used the same facilities, I don’t see why you’d need to gender segregate a facility like that. That’s certainly not the case everywhere in Europe. Budapest bathhouses, for instance, were either sex-segregated (and in the male ones you generally just wore a little loin cloth, but there was nudity in some, as well) or they were unisex, in which garments were worn to cover up your naughty bits. I did find this somewhat interesting, as Budapest is not exactly a sexually repressive place, in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/271 "2013-01-04T06:45:26Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > I don’t define transgender any differently from most people, with the exception of not including “transsexual” in the list of people to whom the word transgender refers. The fundamental fact that engaging in behaviour typically considered appropriate to your gender is NOT trans-gender behaviour is self evident, and that is what a transsexual does. A transsexual CAN also be transgender (I’ve known a trans man who was also a drag queen) but most of us just go about the business of living like a typical person of our gender. > > I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with what transgender people do. I’m saying transsexuals don’t do it so considering the two related is just plain incorrect. That’s why I have such strong emotion: a ridiculously incorrect premise is being treated like fact, even by people who should know much better. > > @ Miller: as you can no doubt tell, I feel extremely strongly about this. I feel like I’ve explained why to the best of my ability. If you can’t see why I’m so offended then I really don’t know what to say at this point. Let’s just drop it. I understand the genus of your offense, if not its intensity. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/272 "2013-01-04T07:40:47Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > HOOOLEEEEE SHIIIIIIT > > Well, here’s what we all get for speculatin’. [I found a news report about it.](http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/lgbt/Trans-man-hits-Niles-spa-with-discrimination-complaint/40762.html) > > Transman, not woman. > > Offered private shower. > > Refused. > > Filing suit. > > Playing the racial segregation equivalency card. > > No, I don’t know him. Yes, it appears drama llama was the correct answer. I don’t have a problem going back there. > > Thanks, all. It’s been real. Thanks for posting the actual “dope” (information). Anyone notice how quick everyone was to assume the trans person in the story was a woman? ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/273 "2013-01-04T07:44:44Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Thanks for posting the actual “dope” (information). Anyone notice how quick everyone was to assume the trans person in the story was a woman? Transwomen vastly outnumber transmen. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/274 "2013-01-04T08:09:22Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Transwomen vastly outnumber transmen. I very much doubt that. The study cited as the basis for such ratio turns out to be, when you look at it, made of flawed methodology and data. The study only looked at people who went through a course of treatment at one of those old gender-identity clinics. The time period they covered was during the '60s and '70s, the dark ages for trans people compared to now. At that time, there was a lopsided number of women signing up for the treatment. Trans men mostly avoided those places because a) There wasn’t much they could offer the guys, since there was no satisfactory surgery available for them, b) Once they’ve been shooting up testosterone, their muscles bulk up, they grow beards, start balding, and get deep voices. It becomes so relatively physically easy for many (most?) of them to be accepted as men in their everyday lives, they were more content to go with DIY transitions, and c) Those who came through the lesbian scene were more likely to have been politically radicalized during the days of rage with the New Left, Women’s Lib, and everything going on in those days, and were more likely to question the authority of the Man. And in those days, the Man controlled official gender transitions with a heavy authoritarian fist. The study that counted people enrolled in gender programs made no attempt to count trans people who hadn’t signed up. That meant they disproportionately left out trans men. Those antiquated so-called figures need to be debunked for good, and a proper scientifically designed study needs to be run afresh to estimate the relative gender populations. From what I’ve seen from people working on the question recently, they’re suggesting the ratio is closer to 1:1. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/275 "2013-01-04T08:16:43Z")
… you seem to be under the impression there has only been one study on the incidence of transsexuality by gender. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/276 "2013-01-04T08:19:43Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > And easier to follow! When having a conversation about gender identity and use of facilities, if someone is referring to a man in the woman’s locker room, it helps to know if they mean a transman or a cisman. Since both are men, saying “man” in this context isn’t very clear… Disagree – as you mention yourself, that’s why we _already have_ transman\*. A “man,” like it or not, is defined by the norm: [**1. an adult male human being, _as distinguished_ from a woman**](http://www.tfd.com/man). \*which includes both transgender and transsexuals. So what ‘other’ kind of man is there? The ‘cisman’? Seriously? 'cause he is comfortable with his balls he needs to relay that info with some obscure jargon? Further, would he then have to add – as someone did upthread, that they are gay/bi or straight cismen? Please. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/277 "2013-01-04T08:42:07Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Finally, I don’t know whether Korean custom matches up with what I’ve heard of Japanese custom, but this whole point would (should) be moot in a Japanese bathhouse, because the idea is that nobody would see the nakedness and to comment or act upon it would be unconscionably rude. If Korean custom is not like this and more like American high school locker room, having the wrong body parts showing in a public-but-segregated nudity situation is going to be awkward, if not downright unacceptable. Korean custom is nothing at all like Japanese custom. In saunas in Korea, the saunas are segregated; one part for the males, another for the females. Come to think of it, I haven’t heard of any in Korea where there’s any mixing even after one leaves the soaking rooms. Additionally, there is no law in Korea prohibiting discrimination so there have been a couple of cases recently where non-Koreans, including one case in which the victim of the discrimination is someone who got naturalized Korean, were flat-out refused entry into the sauna. I’m curious about something the OP mentioned. I’ve met plenty of Koreans and Korean-Americans in America and yet, not a one of the Korean-Americans I’ve met has been unable to communicate in English. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/278 "2013-01-04T08:43:18Z")
Nope, I just said I’ve been reading where people have been recently working on that question. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/279 "2013-01-04T08:48:56Z")
I forgot to mention something. When I lived in Japan in the early 1990s, Japanese saunas, for the most part, were no longer permitting mixed nude bathing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/280 "2013-01-04T12:08:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s… not especially clear. To be fair, she didn’t say it was clear; she said she couldn’t make it any clearer. > [@SevenCL](#): > > I don’t define transgender any differently from most people, with the exception of not including “transsexual” in the list of people to whom the word transgender refers. That “exception” is rather key to the debate, though. Your exception, your different definition, is the entire reason you’re taking offense. It’s as if I define “man” the same way as everyone else, with the exception that I don’t include nonrapist men in the definition, and then get offended when someone calls me a man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=15)