# Transgendered person kicked out of a gender divided bathhouse/spa **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777 "2013-01-01T21:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/341 "2013-01-06T00:15:32Z")
When one’s argument boils down to the “cutting off your penis is the same as cutting off your arm” trope…I don’t even know what to think. The facts are painfully well known that gender transition is not cutting of one’s penis, it’s a multi-year process of psychological, hormonal, and other treatment which results in changes to the entire body, the last one of which is typically GRS. It begs the question of why deliberately inflammatory statements like that even belong in a debate. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/342 "2013-01-06T00:44:33Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > When one’s argument boils down to the “cutting off your penis is the same as cutting off your arm” trope…I don’t even know what to think. The facts are painfully well known that gender transition is not cutting of one’s penis, it’s a multi-year process of psychological, hormonal, and other treatment which results in changes to the entire body, the last one of which is typically GRS. It begs the question of why deliberately inflammatory statements like that even belong in a debate. It’s certainly not deliberately inflammatory. The only reason an analog for BIID patients doesn’t exist is because people think it’s absurd. As in, that the people who have the condition are crazy, and thus can be marginalized. On it’s merits, there is not much different between the two “treatments”. Either way, the problem isn’t primarily the difference in treatment responses, it’s that one group expects their understanding of their own body to supplant society’s understanding of gender and sex, whereas the other does not. I am all for medical professionals doing whatever they think is best to mitigate suffering. I am less comfortable allowing anyone with a diagnosed condition to feel their reality should guide the law. ---
**Author:** ![AqualungBats5th](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@AqualungBats5th](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AqualungBats5th)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/343 "2013-01-06T00:47:29Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > it’s that one group expects their understanding of their own body to supplant society’s understanding of gender and sex Which is changing, though slowly. If it does, and society comes to agree with trans people, will your argument still hold water? ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/344 "2013-01-06T01:17:03Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > So because it might be the least bad option, you would codify the diagnosis as being based on fact? That is, that a person can literally be born with too many limb or faculties? That’s the problem I have with this. I one thing for the mental health community to recommend treatments to alleviate suffering of any kind. It’s an entirely different thing to use those diagnoses to inform the law under the assumption that the patients’ perspectives are accurate, and to force others to agree with that interpretation. Who cares how they phrase the diagnosis? I sure don’t. The important thing is that treatment should be available to those who seek it, **if there is a good reason to think that it is the only thing that will help.** That does not mean that every doctor should be legally obligated to perform every surgery requested of them. They are not, even now. It means only that a doctor who chooses to perform such a surgery after a well-considered determination that it is warranted should be allowed to do so without legal penalty. If George Clooney gets some kind of magical surgery that makes him appear black, then of course he can be discriminated against for being black. I don’t understand what your point is here. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/345 "2013-01-06T01:33:41Z")
I kinda want to bookmark this thread for the next time a discussion of “privilege” comes up. Not as an attack on others, but because it makes me realize, in a totally nonthreatening way, how privileged I am as a cisgender person not to have to deal with these issues and not to have had to think about them. My main role here is to sit down, shut up, and pay attention to folks like **Johanna** , with her direct experience; **Una Persson** , with her indirect expertise; and even **SevenCL** , with her ornery and idiosyncratic rage about how she and others get treated. If you’ve not spent your life dealing with these issues, folks, it may behoove you to spend more time reading and less time writing; it’s an opportunity, if you’ll take it, to fight your own ignorance. Your privilege is that you don’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/346 "2013-01-06T01:57:28Z")
There is a simple and fair solution to this ‘problem’. We accept the right for nude saunas to offer sex-segregated facilities, since no one is being disadvantaged by it, and it would be an affront to poor women not to. Any demand for non-segregated facilities will surely be met by the free market, or by public provision if necessary. We accept the right of nude sauna managements to restrict entry to the ladies’ nude sauna to those that their nude lady customers are collectively happy to accept. Everyone else who wants a nude sauna can use the other one. Depending on demand, nude sauna managers might offer a range of alternative nude saunas. Anyone who is too embarrassed to share a nude sauna with men, and who is rejected by the ladies’ sauna, accepts (and shouldn’t really have difficulty understanding) that the users of the ‘ladies’’ sauna are too embarrassed to share a sauna with them. They can do without if it is too embarrassing for them to share with the men. Anyone who is too intimidated to share a nude sauna with men, really should understand that that applies doubly to the women who don’t want them in the ladies’ sauna. There should be rules to prevent harrasment, to allay any fears. (Really, I’ve never seen so much misogynist crap spouted in the name of tolerance in my whole life as I’ve seen in this thread). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/347 "2013-01-06T02:55:17Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > There is a simple and fair solution to this ‘problem’. This is not simple. For example, under your proposal, if there’s a woman who has some bad surgery scars from her chemotherapy, can the collective will of the ladies ban her from the women’s sauna? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/348 "2013-01-06T03:11:17Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > 'Cause it’s what’s between the ears that makes you who you are… Ridiculous. That eliminates all psychiatric conditions. My brains tells me I am able to fly… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/349 "2013-01-06T03:13:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is not simple. For example, under your proposal, if there’s a woman who has some bad surgery scars from her chemotherapy, can the collective will of the ladies ban her from the women’s sauna? If a night club can deny me entry for being fat, ugly, or dressed unfashionably, then why not this? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/350 "2013-01-06T03:16:11Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > There is a simple and fair solution to this ‘problem’. Didja miss the part where the person kicked out was (is) a transman kicked out of the _men’s_ side of the spa? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/351 "2013-01-06T04:15:30Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If a night club can deny me entry for being fat, ugly, or dressed unfashionably, then why not this? Let’s assume that **Sandwich** would answer the way you would, and let’s further assume that rather than just playing Questions, you’d answered with a clear “yes.” Fair enough. Would it be okay for the collective will of the ladies also to ban black women from entering the sauna, if the ladies were mostly white? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/352 "2013-01-06T05:12:01Z")
No, I’m going to keep asking questions. Race is a suspect classification. Should every possible classification get the same protection as race? Should a night club be required to admit me? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/353 "2013-01-06T06:15:18Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > **Because you’re mixing gender with sexual preference. This is also implied by your drawing a parallel between you being into “BDSM” as you termed it, and transsexuals.** > > Transsexuals are not people who just decide to modify their bodies to change their appearance - they are diagnosed over a period of time by mental professionals as having a brain, thought processes, etc. which are much more different to their physical gender than similarly to it, sometimes profoundly different. > > A gay man is a man who says “I’m a man, and I like other men.” A straight transwoman is a person who says “I’m a woman, and I like men, but my body isn’t right, so I need to fix it to the best of my ability.” > > Typically when one asks the question you do (and there are no unique questions about transsexuals; I’ve seen or heard them all) it’s because they honestly do not believe that someone can have a mental gender which is different than their physical gender. They often, if they are not hostile, are in the “whuddevermakesyouhappy” class, which often is another way of saying “I think you’re a loon but you aren’t immediately inconveniencing me so I won’t argue with you.” > > The problem is often one of personal exposure. I know, chat with, phone, work with, play with, and live with transwomen on a daily basis. Last night I played cards with one wonderful transwoman until 2am. Today I’ve already chatted with another, and am going dancing with about 10 or so transwomen tonight. Tomorrow I’m going shopping with a couple more. I’m making the appeal from authority, in other words. I have no more questions about the veracity of transsexualism than I do that the Earth orbits the sun. > > I have found, in my experience, that those who doubt but are not hostile to transsexuals without exception change their views when they get to know or spend extended time with a real, honest to goodness transsexual person. When you can see how serious and how profound the difference is, and understand how no one willingly would do what they are doing unless their lives did not depend on it (not hyperbole; see the prior suicide stats), and when you’ve studied how ineffective counseling and psychotropic drugs are for “fixing” the problem - then one has no difficulty believing as well. Of course if one happens to actually be a transwoman, than one certainly has no problem believing either… > > And when you know transsexuals you find one thing stands out - how normal they really are. Aside from the issue of their gender identity they are just like all the rest of folks who at heart just want to do things like have a go to school, get a good job, have a nice house, be a good neighbor who always mows their lawn on Saturday morning, have BBQs and go out for drinks, watch TV and see movies, go to church, have hobbies and vacations, and fall in love, maybe raise a family. > > The FUD towards transsexuals typically boils down to some combination of ignorance, penis panic, hysterical homophobia, and religious puritanism, and it’s shameful, really, and I mean that with more intensity than is typically implied by the word. I am a Dom and have been for decades, way prior to BDSM becoming somewhat mainstream/faddish – what do you you mean “as I term it”? Want respect? Give it back. Other than that, appreciate your response. Much to mulch on. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/354 "2013-01-06T06:51:11Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I am a Dom and have been for decades, way prior to BDSM becoming somewhat mainstream/faddish – what do you you mean “as I term it”? Want respect? Give it back. > > Other than that, appreciate your response. Much to mulch on. Dom? BDSM? Mulch? I’m sorry, I don’t know what those terms mean. Are they some sort of ultra-politically-correct special snowflake indigo child cant or what’s going on there I don’t know why you insist on bringing your silly internet pervo-jargon into this thread. What are you, some kind of Zionist? I hope you show me some respect, because let me tell you mister i was into diapers **before** it was cool ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/355 "2013-01-06T14:51:31Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, I’m going to keep asking questions. Race is a suspect classification. Should every possible classification get the same protection as race? No. > [@](#): > > Should a night club be required to admit me? No. Now that I’ve demonstrated how to answer questions, please give it a try. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/356 "2013-01-06T14:55:01Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Race is a suspect classification. Should every possible classification get the same protection as race? Ones that have strong irrational prejudice attached to them should have. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/357 "2013-01-06T15:16:46Z")
I’m still asking questions. To both of your “nos” I ask why. What makes these classifications different from each other and what determines whether any one classification is more like race or more like ugly? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/358 "2013-01-06T15:18:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m still asking questions. Lovely. Once you start answering some, I’ll return the favor. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/359 "2013-01-06T15:19:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Ones that have strong irrational prejudice attached to them should have. There are fairly strong irrational prejudices against short people and ugly people. Being tall or attractive makes it far more likely that a person will be financially successful in life. What makes a person with horrible scars from cancer surgery different from an ugly person? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/360 "2013-01-06T15:21:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Lovely. Once you start answering some, I’ll return the favor. What is the benefit of pinning me down? I’m not ready to take any particular position on these questions. You on the other hand seem to have made up your mind. Why not allow me to understand your reasoning? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=19)