# Transgendered person kicked out of a gender divided bathhouse/spa **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777 "2013-01-01T21:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/61 "2013-01-03T01:18:43Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Oh goody. > > So, Buck Angel (just google him) who is far more muscular than I am, who has more masculine facial features and manlier hands, should use the women’s room because he has a vagina?? I’m not saying what should be. I’m saying what is. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/62 "2013-01-03T01:24:30Z")
And Buck Angel doesn’t appear to be transgendered. He appears to be intersexed. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/63 "2013-01-03T01:35:30Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’m not saying what should be. I’m saying what is. I’m also saying what is. Buck is a thoroughly manly man with a vagina. What room would you recommend he use? > [@](#): > > And Buck Angel doesn’t appear to be transgendered. He appears to be intersexed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck\_Angel Says that he’s a transsexual. Buck’s own site says [QUOTE=Buck Angel] Hi, I am Buck Angel, The Man with a Pussy. I am the WORLDS first ever Female-to-Male transsexual porn star! [/QUOTE] So, I’m going with Buck being an FTM. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/64 "2013-01-03T01:36:17Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You know what? Society is big and there are too many people to request fine details for every individual situation. The general rule is that there’s a men’s room and a women’s room, and it should not be more complicated than that. If an individual situation is more complicated than that, perhaps he or she should delay using open changing areas. Just to be clear, are you saying that if today’s rest room users are not already comfortable sharing existing rest rooms with transgender people, the transgender people should just delay peeing? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/65 "2013-01-03T01:45:27Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I’m also saying what is. Buck is a thoroughly manly man with a vagina. What room would you recommend he use? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck\_Angel Says that he’s a transsexual. > > Buck’s own site says > > So, I’m going with Buck being an FTM. I don’t see the point of this line. My contention is that locker rooms are, and always have been, sex segregated and not gender segregated. The existence of people who don’t neatly fall into a male or female sex doesn’t refute that contention. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/66 "2013-01-03T01:48:37Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > As to the guy in the link, which is so obviously posted as a “gotcha” it’s ridiculous, yes, I would be uncomfortable with that fellow there, HOWEVER, if she’s got a vagina AND is being referred to as a she, that is where she belongs and at this point I agree that it’s my lookout to Deal with it. It can’t have been all that obvious a gotcha, since you didn’t seem to quite get it. The person in that picture is a man. He has (I presume) a male name, uses masculine pronouns for himself, dresses like a man, and socializes like a man. He just doesn’t have a penis. I don’t mean to climb into your head, but if you have issues being naked around strange men, having that guy in the women’s room strikes me as much more of an issue than letting, say, [this woman.](http://www.carolinahuddle.com/boards/topic/81166-sarina-valentina/). (No nudity in that link, but it does show a woman in skimpy lingerie.) I don’t mean to get on your case here, and I appreciate your concerns, and particularly the concerns of someone like **septima** , where the situation might be triggering, but what is a transwoman who has the same triggers supposed to do? Transwomen have exactly the same personal safety and modesty concerns as cis women, on top of worries about transphobia and/or homophobia. Certainly, if actual safety issues are a concern, forcing a transwoman to use the men’s changing room is _vastly_ more dangerous than allowing her to use the women’s. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/67 "2013-01-03T01:51:38Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t see the point of this line. My contention is that locker rooms are, and always have been, sex segregated and not gender segregated. The existence of people who don’t neatly fall into a male or female sex doesn’t refute that contention. If answering the question wouldn’t refute your contention, then why not answer the question? What room should Buck use? Further, kindly define the words “sex” and “gender” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/68 "2013-01-03T01:55:38Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t see the point of this line. My contention is that locker rooms are, and always have been, sex segregated and not gender segregated. The existence of people who don’t neatly fall into a male or female sex doesn’t refute that contention. You don’t see the _point_? What, exactly, do you think this thread is about? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/69 "2013-01-03T01:57:45Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > I do reject that concept [of divided locker rooms], because it’s a silly concept to begin with. Oh, I know it’s what everybody is comfortable with now and everyone would get their knickers in a twist if it were suddenly changed. But let’s be honest: penised people having to go into a different cubicle _in a different room_ from vaginaed people is just silly. Well, that’s fine. If we as a society get rid of the whole thing, no problem. But as long as we have gender-divided locker rooms and bathrooms and have women’s only gyms and so forth, I think it’s unfair to slam a particular private establishment for the way they identify gender. They have no way to tell if a person is a sincere transgender, or just a man trying to get into the women’s locker room. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/70 "2013-01-03T01:59:15Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > If answering the question wouldn’t refute your contention, then why not answer the question? What room should Buck use? Why don’t you address my point instead of asking random questions? > [@DocCathode](#): > > Further, kindly define the words “sex” and “gender” Is there a shortage of dictionaries where you are? > [@Miller](#): > > You don’t see the point? What, exactly, do you think this thread is about? No, I don’t see the point of asking questions that don’t address my point. Now, if you are all done, why don’t you actually address my argument? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/71 "2013-01-03T02:04:35Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Is there a shortage of dictionaries where you are? I know what the terms mean. I was asking to see if you know what they mean. As of this post, I’m still waiting to see if you do. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/72 "2013-01-03T02:06:24Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I know what the terms mean. I was asking to see if you know what they mean. As of this post, I’m still waiting to see if you do. Yes, I know what sex and gender are. Now, why don’t you actually address my point. Do you think locker rooms are sex or gender segregated? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/73 "2013-01-03T02:08:40Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Yes, I know what sex and gender are. Then define them > [@](#): > > Now, why don’t you actually address my point. Do you think locker rooms are sex or gender segregated? There’s no point in doing that until we can be sure we’re working on the same definitions of those terms. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/74 "2013-01-03T02:14:31Z")
> [@treis](#): > > No, I don’t see the point of asking questions that don’t address my point. > > Now, if you are all done, why don’t you actually address my argument? I’m not sure how I can give a better response to your argument than **DocCathode** has already done here, and I’m honestly at a loss as to why you think his response was off topic or irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/75 "2013-01-03T02:19:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not sure how I can give a better response to your argument than **DocCathode** has already done here, and I’m honestly at a loss as to why you think his response was off topic or irrelevant. Because it doesn’t address my one simple point. People in this thread have been calling locker rooms “gender divided”, when this is clearly not the case. Locker rooms are divided by sex, not gender. So a germane response would be “Yes, that’s right” or "No, gender is what is important because \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ ". Saying “But what about people who aren’t 100% male or female” doesn’t address the point. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/76 "2013-01-03T02:22:07Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Because it doesn’t address my one simple point. People in this thread have been calling locker rooms “gender divided”, when this is clearly not the case. Locker rooms are divided by sex, not gender. So a germane response would be “Yes, that’s right” or "No, gender is what is important because \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ ". Saying “But what about people who aren’t 100% male or female” doesn’t address the point. I don’t understand why you think this is an important distinction in this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/77 "2013-01-03T02:29:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t understand why you think this is an important distinction in this conversation. 😕 It’s the crux of the issue. If I am a male that identifies as a women, which locker room am I supposed to use? If they are segregated by sex, I should use the men’s, and if they are segregated by gender I should use the women’s. It’s the essential issue of the OP. Say her friend is a male that identifies as a female. If the locker rooms are sex segregated, and she used the women’s locker room, then she was justifiably bounced for violating the spa’s rules. If they are gender segregated, and she used the women’s locker room, then she was bounced because the spa didn’t recognize her preferred gender identification. ---
**Author:** ![Myrnalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@Myrnalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrnalene)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/78 "2013-01-03T02:30:30Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Looking at that picture, he looks very much like a man. He has tats like a man, poses like a man, has his head shaved like a man, muscles like a man: all of the cultural symbols that define a man. He doesn’t look like he’s in doubt or trying to be a woman; he looks like he’s trying to be a man. I would hope he would have some discretion, but yes, he **has a right to use the woman’s room.** How very generous of you to allow him a “right” to something that he almost certainly does not want. ETA: Are people ever going to learn not to say things like “a man that identifies as a woman”? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/79 "2013-01-03T02:40:12Z")
So I was thinking of declawing my cat, but I don’t want to spend the money for a vet so I’m just planning to do it myself with a pair of pliers. Any advice? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/80 "2013-01-03T02:45:41Z")
Bathrooms. Do you business and get out. Pretty easy to not flaunt your parts and pretty hard to glimpse others even if you try. As long as you look like a dressed man in the mens room or dressed woman in the womans room you are good to go. Saunas and spas where nudity is the norm. Its the exact opposite. Why are folks even bringing up bathrooms? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=5)