# Transgendered person kicked out of a gender divided bathhouse/spa **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777 "2013-01-01T21:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/81 "2013-01-03T02:48:44Z")
Why does it matter that it may make the cis-gendered uncomfortable? Being around gay men makes me uncomfortable. Doesn’t mean I don’t realize that it’s my inherent bigotry causing that, and thus I have no right to insist that the other person accommodate my bigotry by leaving. The only way you are ever going to become comfortable with the concept is if you don’t run away when the situation happens. You’re not going to lose that last bit of bigotry in you if you insist that the other person did something wrong by being there. You do agree that bigotry is wrong, right? So don’t embrace your own. Now, I don’t know if that means the OP shouldn’t go there, as, I agree, it seems like an odd thing for the trans person to not only be kicked out but also without a refund. That screams that they did something wrong, and only more information will tell you what happened. But if it was because of the owners’ bigotry, then it depends on whether you think your own personal comfort is worth more than giving money that will enable bigots who aren’t remotely sorry for what they are. And, Anamika, you get to be comfortable when you get rid of your bigotry. The only excuse I find compelling is rape, and even then I find myself leaning on the side that said people should either accept the risk or not attend. It’s not as if the nudity is actually an important part of the experience, and it’s not as if there are not non-nude spas out there. The dressing room is the only problem, and it’s trivial to dress at home. Now, knowing how many bigots there are, I would suggest that untransitioned trans people avoid going completely nude, but that’s the realist in me, and does not mean that I think I have the right to force the issue. I only have the right to force issues when immorality is involved, and disrobing in a place designed for disrobing is not immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/82 "2013-01-03T03:00:39Z")
> [@treis](#): > > 😕 > > It’s the crux of the issue. If I am a male that identifies as a women, which locker room am I supposed to use? If they are segregated by sex, I should use the men’s, and if they are segregated by gender I should use the women’s. > > It’s the essential issue of the OP. Say her friend is a male that identifies as a female. If the locker rooms are sex segregated, and she used the women’s locker room, then she was justifiably bounced for violating the spa’s rules. If they are gender segregated, and she used the women’s locker room, then she was bounced because the spa didn’t recognize her preferred gender identification. None of this is even remotely relevant to this thread. I mean, you might be right that most restrooms and locker rooms are segregated by sex, and that’s why trans people should use the other bathroom, but who gives a shit? Why do you think that particular fact is important to anyone involved in this thread? I mean, I think that a transwoman should use the woman’s locker room. **Anaamika** thinks she should use the men. If you proved, conclusively and unarguably, that locker rooms are segregated by sex, and not by gender, would you expect that fact to change my opinion on the issue? Conversely, if I could prove that locker rooms are segregated by gender, do you think that fact alone would make **Anaamika** change her mind? It might be relevant if we were arguing this as a matter of law, where how the statute is worded determines whether the spa is liable to legal or civil punishment, but no one is talking about what the legalities are, we’re talking about what the social conventions should be. The distinction between sex segregation and gender segregation is utterly meaningless to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/83 "2013-01-03T03:02:56Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Why are folks even bringing up bathrooms? No joke: every single time in this thread where I’ve written “locker room,” I’ve first written “bathroom” by mistake and had to go back to fix it before I hit submit. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/84 "2013-01-03T03:15:20Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Which is fantastic: I am more than happy to be a part of that as long as my vagina isn’t out in the process. Acsenray didn’t make a clothing distinction. I’m quite sure, in fact this board has made it quite clear that there are men who are not comfortable sharing locker rooms with gay men, to put it politely. Whose personal comfort should be paramount? Mine? Theirs? What makes this situation different than a transperson’s? Remember, by the way, so far we have a foaf story of a transperson getting kicked out of a particularly unusual (for americans) spa and I believe, Una mentioned a transwoman who stood up to pee in a stall not realizing how that might look to others in the bathroom. That’s 2 events (barely) in the collective lives of everyone participating in this thread who’ve felt it was necessary to share. I think as far as the potential for abuse goes, this is way down on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/85 "2013-01-03T03:19:56Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > ``` > I'm sure that nearly all pre-op transgendered people would not "get naked in front of other people and flaunt their "wrong stuff" ". But I can believe it happens on occasion , only because I don't think being trans confers some sort of immunity to the sort of extremist , attention/publicity seeking, or "everyone must adjust to me and I must adjust to no one" behavior found in every other human group. > > ``` When a very real reaction to ‘attention seeking’ even in places like America is beating, sexual assault, or even death, people learn very quickly to knock that stuff off or restrict it to extremely safe environments. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/86 "2013-01-03T03:30:14Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > None of this is even remotely relevant to this thread. I mean, you might be right that most restrooms and locker rooms are segregated by sex, and that’s why trans people should use the other bathroom, but who gives a shit? Why do you think that particular fact is important to anyone involved in this thread? Because they made it a point to specify that the division is gender. Obviously that’s an important distinction. Because if locker room’s were gender-segregated, then according to the mores of the enlightened Doper the spa’s actions are ipso facto wrong. > [@Miller](#): > > I mean, I think that a transwoman should use the woman’s locker room. **Anaamika** thinks she should use the men. If you proved, conclusively and unarguably, that locker rooms are segregated by sex, and not by gender, would you expect that fact to change my opinion on the issue? Conversely, if I could prove that locker rooms are segregated by gender, do you think that fact alone would make **Anaamika** change her mind? I think it’s important to be clear about the burden of proof, so to speak. Locker rooms, in this country at least, have been sex segregated since there has been locker rooms. Generally speaking, those advocating for change have to put forth the argument why the change is better. Thus far in this thread, it simply seems to have been accepted that Anaamika’s feelings are wrong. As for me, if I were alone in a communal shower and a naked female walked it, I would be confused and consternated. My immediate thought is not going to be “Wow, isn’t it great that this transgendered woman is comfortable with himself”. It’s going to be “Why is this woman acting in flagrant violation of the rules and what is wrong with her?” (Or more realistically “Oh fuck, am I in the wrong locker room”). If I put myself in the perspective of a 5’5" 125 pound woman showering alone when a 6’1 215 pound male walks in the shower, the reaction is going to be much stronger. More along the lines of “Holy shit, I’m about to be raped”. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/87 "2013-01-03T03:35:24Z")
I eagerly await your carefully compiled report of women raped in spa showers by transwomen. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/88 "2013-01-03T03:38:20Z")
I await your reasoning why I should be able to walk into a school with a fake but realistic looking “assualt” weapon. In sex segregated places people freak out when it looks like the wrong physical sex walks in. Its not the ACTUAL threat. Its the APPARENT threat. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/89 "2013-01-03T03:47:43Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I eagerly await your carefully compiled report of women raped in spa showers by transwomen. > [@billfish678](#): > > I await your reasoning why I should be able to walk into a school with a fake but realistic looking “assualt” weapon. In sex segregated places people freak out when it looks like the wrong physical sex walks in. Its not the ACTUAL threat. Its the APPARENT threat. Seriously, that was just a dumb argument. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/90 "2013-01-03T03:55:37Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Seriously, that was just a dumb argument. Which one? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/91 "2013-01-03T03:57:18Z")
Inner Stickler’s ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/92 "2013-01-03T03:57:54Z")
The safe money would have been on both 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/93 "2013-01-03T04:02:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Certainly, if actual safety issues are a concern, forcing a transwoman to use the men’s changing room is _vastly_ more dangerous than allowing her to use the women’s. From this thread, it seems that for some the answer is that they should stay at home with the curtains drawn and not socialize with all the normal, God-fearing Americans. A very similar discussion could have occurred in 1948 on the vacuum tube-driven SDMB, as to whether or not a “colored woman” should have been allowed into a white woman’s spa, as her very presence was giving some of the ladies the vapors and upsetting them ever-so-much. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/94 "2013-01-03T04:03:50Z")
> [@Myrnalene](#): > > How very generous of you to allow him a “right” to something that he almost certainly does not want. > > ETA: Are people ever going to learn not to say things like “a man that identifies as a woman”? Educated and compassionate people will learn, given sufficient information and some patience. Others…not. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/95 "2013-01-03T04:14:48Z")
n/m ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/96 "2013-01-03T04:16:49Z")
Well, aren’t you enlightened? ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/97 "2013-01-03T04:23:01Z")
Comparing transgendered people to minority ethnicities is a false analogy. Our society accepts the premise that genders should be segregated. A transgendered person is still their original gender. Just because they suffer a mental disorder and have surgically altered their genitals does not change their gender. And FWIW, if I told my psychiatrist I thought I “should” be Batman, he would throw me in a padded room, not give me a Batmobile. Just because a person has a mental disorder does not mean the rest of us should be party to letting them act out their delusion… no matter how many drugs and surgeries they think they need. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/98 "2013-01-03T04:24:02Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Educated and compassionate people will learn, given sufficient information and some patience. Others…not. Google “Naive Realism.” > **[Naïve realism (psychology)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_realism_(psychology))** > > In social psychology, naïve realism is the human tendency to believe that we see the world around us objectively, and that people who disagree with us must be uninformed, irrational, or biased. > Naïve realism provides a theoretical basis for several other cognitive biases, which are systematic errors when it comes to thinking and making decisions. These include the false consensus effect, actor–observer bias, bias blind spot, and fundamental attribution error, among others. > The term, as it is us... ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/99 "2013-01-03T04:29:50Z")
I’ve got nothing of value to add to the sex /gender debate, nor on what actually happened. But I would like to note, that it’s not beyond the bounds of possiblity that the person in question is post op / fully transitioned and thus unquestionably using the “correct” locker room but was outed to management by someone that knows her and then booted unceremoniously. It strikes me as a possibility that maybe the person in question is post op, but not yet legally changed name, and for whatever reason a “male” name was noticed in the female room and thus booted unfairly. As to whether or not to give the spa my money - I’d reserve judgement until I felt I had a good factualy handle on the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/100 "2013-01-03T04:40:29Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > Comparing transgendered people to minority ethnicities is a false analogy. > > Our society accepts the premise that genders should be segregated. > > A transgendered person is still their original gender. Just because they suffer a mental disorder and have surgically altered their genitals does not change their gender. Google the difference between “sex” and “gender.” This stuff just isn’t difficult. Google the definition of transgender. _This_ stuff just isn’t difficult either. Society used to accept that all sorts of people should be segregated, for a cavalcade of reasons. Most people know this. You don’t. :dubious: > [@](#): > > And FWIW, if I told my psychiatrist I thought I “should” be Batman, he would throw me in a padded room, not give me a Batmobile. Just because a person has a mental disorder does not mean the rest of us should be party to letting them act out their delusion… no matter how many drugs and surgeries they think they need. Too bad the modern medical establishment disagrees with you, but hey, what do those clowns know, huh? _You_ have the inside scoop! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=6)