# Transgendered person kicked out of a gender divided bathhouse/spa **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777 "2013-01-01T21:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/101 "2013-01-03T04:44:44Z")
So modern medicine is handing out batmobiles? Who knew? No wonder healthcare costs are skyrocketing. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/102 "2013-01-03T04:45:42Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I await your reasoning why I should be able to walk into a school with a fake but realistic looking “assualt” weapon. In sex segregated places people freak out when it looks like the wrong physical sex walks in. Its not the ACTUAL threat. Its the APPARENT threat. So which locker room do you think Loren Cameron should use? Remember that treis would have him use the women’s while I think he belongs in the men’s. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/103 "2013-01-03T04:48:20Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Seriously, that was just a dumb argument. _shrug_ Make your arguments more credible, then. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/104 "2013-01-03T04:50:46Z")
If “he” looks like a man and dresses like one, mens room and a stall. If “he” looks like a woman and dresses like one, womens room and a stall. If its Pat from SNL I don’t what to tell yah. Though, again, I repeat, this bathroom thing is only remotely related IMO to the spa/sauna thing. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/105 "2013-01-03T04:53:28Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > So modern medicine is handing out batmobiles? Who knew? No wonder healthcare costs are skyrocketing. Well, no…that’s not quite the point of the post. But to respond to your tangential observation, one does wish that more were interested in becoming Superman, as capes are so much less dear than automobiles. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/106 "2013-01-03T04:58:21Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Though, again, I repeat, this bathroom thing is only remotely related IMO to the spa/sauna thing. Which is why I’m confused about your talking about it since I specifically asked about locker rooms. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/107 "2013-01-03T05:03:59Z")
I would need more information, and more reliable information to decide. And even then, the loss of business of one person over a rare incident caused by ignorance or cultural differences is kind of pointless unless it comes with some sort of reeducation effort. That said, if a trans person is going to be naked in a gender segregated locker room then they need to “pass” one way or the other or else the segregation is pointless. And it might be kind of pointless anyway. Perhaps in addition to the antiquated male and female rooms there should be anything goes/who cares and individual changing booths options. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/108 "2013-01-03T05:06:37Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Which is why I’m confused about your talking about it since I specifically asked about locker rooms. Sorry, got inverse Millers disease there! Damn him. That or lupus. Hitting the sack for now, later. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/109 "2013-01-03T05:08:01Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Because they made it a point to specify that the division is gender. Obviously that’s an important distinction. Because if locker room’s were gender-segregated, then according to the mores of the enlightened Doper the spa’s actions are ipso facto wrong. I don’t see why it’s an important distinction at all. If the locker room was gender segregated, the spa’s actions were wrong. If the locker room was sex segregated, the spa’s actions were also wrong. I don’t understand why you’re so hung up on such an entirely irrelevant detail. > [@](#): > > I think it’s important to be clear about the burden of proof, so to speak. Locker rooms, in this country at least, have been sex segregated since there has been locker rooms. Generally speaking, those advocating for change have to put forth the argument why the change is better. Thus far in this thread, it simply seems to have been accepted that Anaamika’s feelings are wrong. I don’t think that her feelings are wrong at all. I just don’t think it’s reasonable to base public policy on her feelings, because doing so would require that transpeople refrain from a fairly wide range of activities most of us take for granted, or put themselves in serious physical danger. I also think that there’s a definite slippery slope, here. If we ban transpeople from locker rooms to satisfy **Anaamika** , why not bathrooms? Or busses? Or restaurants? If the only principle in play here is, “it makes me uncomfortable to be around them in that situation,” how do we justify drawing the line where **Anaamika** feels comfortable, and not where some genuinely bigoted ogre thinks we should draw the line? > [@](#): > > As for me, if I were alone in a communal shower and a naked female walked it, I would be confused and consternated. My immediate thought is not going to be “Wow, isn’t it great that this transgendered woman is comfortable with himself”. It’s going to be “Why is this woman acting in flagrant violation of the rules and what is wrong with her?” (Or more realistically “Oh fuck, am I in the wrong locker room”). > > If I put myself in the perspective of a 5’5" 125 pound woman showering alone when a 6’1 215 pound male walks in the shower, the reaction is going to be much stronger. More along the lines of “Holy shit, I’m about to be raped”. Well, this goes back to what I was saying to **Anaamika**. Is your average woman going to be more freaked by seeing [this](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4N2ORH2_Wko/TKIq2RIpmhI/AAAAAAAAAOQ/7ioQw336Jfo/s1600/buckangel_blog.jpg) in a locker room, or [this?](http://www.last.fm/music/Dana+International/+images/49134007). Which person would most likely be perceived as a threat in that situation? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/110 "2013-01-03T05:09:24Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > That said, if a trans person is going to be naked in a gender segregated locker room then they need to “pass” one way or the other or else the segregation is pointless. We have, and I’m being generous here, 1 ironclad example of someone not passing. Before everyone starts getting high on their castigatory horses, let’s first make sure that there is actually an epidemic of transpeople flagrantly abusing the segregated locker rooms system. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/111 "2013-01-03T05:42:16Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > So which locker room do you think Loren Cameron should use? Remember that treis would have him use the women’s while I think he belongs in the men’s. Don’t make shit up. I never said he should use the women’s locker room. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/112 "2013-01-03T05:49:44Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Don’t make shit up. I never said he should use the women’s locker room. He has you confused with **Acsenray** , I think, but I am curious, which locker room do you think he should use? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/113 "2013-01-03T05:59:39Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I am expected to use the men’s locker room because I have a penis, not because I self identify as a man. Seriously, now. Stand by your words or save us time of reading them. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/114 "2013-01-03T05:59:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think that her feelings are wrong at all. I just don’t think it’s reasonable to base public policy on her feelings, because doing so would require that transpeople refrain from a fairly wide range of activities most of us take for granted, or put themselves in serious physical danger. I also think that there’s a definite slippery slope, here. If we ban transpeople from locker rooms to satisfy **Anaamika** , why not bathrooms? Or busses? Or restaurants? If the only principle in play here is, “it makes me uncomfortable to be around them in that situation,” how do we justify drawing the line where **Anaamika** feels comfortable, and not where some genuinely bigoted ogre thinks we should draw the line? I don’t need to be able to give an exact catalog of the differences between a pond and a lake to know the thing in my backyard is a pond and that the thing next to Chicago is a lake. Similarly, while I don’t know exactly where discomfort turns into bigotry, I am confident naked in the shower falls on the right side. > [@Miller](#): > > Well, this goes back to what I was saying to **Anaamika**. Is your average woman going to be more freaked by seeing [this](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4N2ORH2_Wko/TKIq2RIpmhI/AAAAAAAAAOQ/7ioQw336Jfo/s1600/buckangel_blog.jpg) in a locker room, or [this?](http://www.last.fm/music/Dana+International/+images/49134007). Which person would most likely be perceived as a threat in that situation? Dana International clearly belongs in the women’s locker room, as she is anatomically female now. As for Buck Angel, men’s locker room. I don’t know why you continue to muddy the waters with post-op transsexuals and intersexed individuals. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/115 "2013-01-03T06:03:25Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Seriously, now. Stand by your words or save us time of reading them. Quote the entire quote: > [@treis](#): > > Locker rooms are divided by sex. Is he a female? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/116 "2013-01-03T06:04:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > He has you confused with **Acsenray** , I think, but I am curious, which locker room do you think he should use? Men’s. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/117 "2013-01-03T06:07:14Z")
He doesn’t consider himself female and that’s all I need, but according to the treis of a few hours ago, his ownership of a vagina means he should use the women’s locker room. So were you mistaken then, or are you mistaken now? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/118 "2013-01-03T06:08:47Z")
You…clearly don’t know what ‘intersex’ means. Not a single intersex person has been introduced into this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/119 "2013-01-03T06:15:54Z")
I really think this isn’t as big of a deal as it’s being made out to be. As has been mentioned, a pre-op trans is almost guaranteed NOT to get nude in front of people, their preferred gender or not. So gender segregated nude spas aren’t really that much of a concern. Bathrooms are cut and dry. There’s no disrobing and you’re not seeing anything so, not a big deal. I agree things start to get a little hazy with locker rooms but, you can very easily change your clothes and show very little. I know. I was the ace of that in high school. Honestly, most of this lands in the trans person’s court. They know best how their bodies appear. They (presumably) know what sort of places they’re going to. So if there’s any doubt in their mind that they won’t be seen as anything other than their preferred gender, and in doing so cause problems with those around them (ie, the nude spa scenario), they should think about an alternative. Just as they want to be respected for who they are, they should respect those around them as well and think about how their actions might affect them. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/120 "2013-01-03T07:03:58Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > He doesn’t consider himself female and that’s all I need, but according to the treis of a few hours ago, his ownership of a vagina means he should use the women’s locker room. So were you mistaken then, or are you mistaken now? You aren’t very good at this. Try taking a logic course or follow some politicians. Then maybe you can try putting words in peoples mouths in another thread, because what you are doing here isn’t working. > [@Kamino Neko](#): > > You…clearly don’t know what ‘intersex’ means. Not a single intersex person has been introduced into this discussion. Buck Angel is clearly intersexed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=7)