# Transgendered person kicked out of a gender divided bathhouse/spa **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777 "2013-01-01T21:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/161 "2013-01-03T21:25:58Z")
@ Malthus; I did say the majority of us are uncomfortable being fully naked around others. There are exceptions. In the changing room, the norm isn’t “no opposite gender genitals”, it’s “no one who looks like they aren’t my gender”, and we’ve proven that looks don’t equal gender, so there’s one reason the norm should be changed. As you say though, the reason is most likely fear - or more likely, a conditioned feeling of taboo because it’s generally not done in our culture. So should we as a society cater to peoples’ irrational emotional response to such harmless things as being around someone with different genitalia nude? I hope I can presume that you’d agree people who have an irrational negative emotional response to homosexuality and ethnic minorities shouldn’t be able to discriminate, so why should such a response to someone’s genital status be any different? I’m a woman, so I belong in the womens’ changing room. Excluding me from it because my genitals aren’t like those of 99% of womens’ is just an irrational prejudice that shouldn’t be catered to in this day and age. Also, just for the sake of curiosity, where is the cutoff point? Those people with ambiguous genitalia I mentioned, do the occupants of the changing room put it to a vote to decide whether that person counts as having a penis or vagina and are therefore ejected to the other changing room? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/162 "2013-01-03T21:27:15Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > You raise a good point. > > My answer is this- pre op and non op transsexuals are not inherently averse to getting naked in a locker room. They don’t want to do it only because it would almost certainly result in their being mocked, insulted, beaten or raped. That’s not what I’m hearing from people self-identifying as transpeople in this thread. They seem to be saying that they are reluctant to display the “wrong” genitals (by which I mean the ones they do not identify with, the ones that do not fit who they are) because they dislike the thought of how those genitals appear. As posted by **Sevencl** : > [@](#): > > First, the vast majority of pre-op transsexuals aren’t going to be comfortable completely stripping down in front of anyone but their partner, and some of us not even then. So this isn’t going to be a common occurence regardless of how accepting society becomes. While it may well be true that transpeople face social discrimination, mockery or worse by appearing naked in public spaces, the message I’m getting from this - rightly or wrongly - is that even if this changed (in the words above, “regardless of how accepting society becomes”) transpeople would still be relunctant to display themselves naked with the “wrong” genitals. If this is the case, changing the societal norm, it seems to me, would have little practical effect. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/163 "2013-01-03T21:29:47Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > You raise a good point. > > My answer is this- pre op and non op transsexuals are not inherently averse to getting naked in a locker room. They don’t want to do it only because it would almost certainly result in their being mocked, insulted, beaten or raped. Not the entire truth, though those are concerns. It is true that many of us are also just plain uncomfortable with the object of our loathing being seen by anyone. I personally had to learn not to look down before I would wash myself as a child. @ Malthus again; one needn’t be fully naked for this issue to arise in a changing room. Any visible indicator that might out one as being transsexual in a gender-segregated area could cause this problem. For example, one could be changing but keep their underwear on, and there would be a visible bulge. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/164 "2013-01-03T21:37:15Z")
A pair of questions: -If we accept that transsexual and transgender folk are welcome to choose the appropriate changing room with no restrictions, is there a plausible risk that some cis-folk will take advantage of that situation to enter a changing room inappropriate for their gender for the purposes of leering? -If that’s a plausible risk, is there any way to mitigate it? Full disclosure: these aren’t gotchas. I have no answer prepped for either question. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/165 "2013-01-03T21:44:37Z")
No one is in favour of allowing transgender people to choose their changing/bathroom. There is a difference between a transsexual and a crossdresser, transvestic fetishst, autogynephile/autoandrophile, or voyeur willing to stick on some panties to get in the womens’ room. So my answer to your questions is that they aren’t a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/166 "2013-01-03T21:45:54Z")
Also, because I expect you’ll next ask how we distinguish a pre-treatment transsexual (or one for whom the treatment is sadly not very effective; common for older transsexuals) from a crossdresser: in the UK, we can have our ID’s gender markers changed once we have legally changed our name, title and obtained a written letter from our shrinks confirming our diagnosis. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/167 "2013-01-03T21:48:26Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > @ Malthus; I did say the majority of us are uncomfortable being fully naked around others. There are exceptions. > > In the changing room, the norm isn’t “no opposite gender genitals”, it’s “no one who looks like they aren’t my gender”, and we’ve proven that looks don’t equal gender, so there’s one reason the norm should be changed. As you say though, the reason is most likely fear - or more likely, a conditioned feeling of taboo because it’s generally not done in our culture. > > So should we as a society cater to peoples’ irrational emotional response to such harmless things as being around someone with different genitalia nude? I hope I can presume that you’d agree people who have an irrational negative emotional response to homosexuality and ethnic minorities shouldn’t be able to discriminate, so why should such a response to someone’s genital status be any different? > > I’m a woman, so I belong in the womens’ changing room. Excluding me from it because my genitals aren’t like those of 99% of womens’ is just an irrational prejudice that shouldn’t be catered to in this day and age. > > Also, just for the sake of curiosity, where is the cutoff point? Those people with ambiguous genitalia I mentioned, do the occupants of the changing room put it to a vote to decide whether that person counts as having a penis or vagina and are therefore ejected to the other changing room? Of course I would agree that emotional responses to homosexuality or ethnic minorities should not be catered to. Nor, to follow with the next logical question, should emotional responses to transpeople be catered to. To my mind, the “you must be of the correct sex to use the changeroom” societal norm or rule was not enacted to discriminate against transpeople or to cater to anti-transpeople emotions. It long predates public awareness of transpeople. From what I can see, the “emotional response” that this norm or rule was designed to cater to, was the fear in our society of (naked) women that is aroused by the sight of (naked) men - that is, people with identifiable male genitals - in “their” space. I’m not a woman, but I can see that this fear has a certain amount of legitimacy to it - unfortunately. In the case of transpeople, they are victims of a fear that, generally, ought not to apply to them - I’m sure that actual cases of women being attacked by transpeople are vanishingly rare. However, my point is this: as a practical matter, changing societal norms should be undertaken only if, after weighing the pros and cons, it is worth the effort. Where “the vast majority of pre-op transsexuals aren’t going to be comfortable completely stripping down in front of anyone”, and where there is at least arguably a reasonable basis for the norm, I can’t see it as being a priority. If I’m correct in the assumptions as to why the norm exists, ambiguous genitalia wouldn’t be a problem anywhere - sadly, someone whose genitals appear deformed isn’t going to pose as much of a concern, as someone with clearly-defined male genitals. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/168 "2013-01-03T21:48:36Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > No one is in favour of allowing transgender people to choose their changing/bathroom. I’m using the meaning of “choose” that’s synonymous with “select.” Every time I use a changing room, I choose the one marked “Men.” Please don’t think I’m suggesting it’s a whimsical choice. > [@](#): > > There is a difference between a transsexual and a crossdresser, transvestic fetishst, autogynephile/autoandrophile, or voyeur willing to stick on some panties to get in the womens’ room. So my answer to your questions is that they aren’t a problem. But that’s not an answer to my question at all, not remotely. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/169 "2013-01-03T21:49:26Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Not some difference in neurochemistry, a big difference in neuro anatomy. And why shouldn’t it be the end all be all? Unless you want to get metaphysical, you are your brain. First, there is certainly not a large amount of evidence that there are significant neuro-anatomical differences. Second, the brain shouldn’t be the end all be all because we are not interested in segregating people based on their brain chemistry. It’s because their genitals look different. > [@DocCathode](#): > > Why? Why would most people not want a 40-year-old disabled adult in the boy scouts? Is that a real question? > [@DocCathode](#): > > All the developmentally disabled folks I know are aware of their chronological age and that they are not like other people. They may act, sometimes, in a child like manner. But, they know they are not children. And transgendered folks know that their sex doesn’t match their gender. The point is that I have no problem with society generally treating a mentally disabled person like their mental age just as I don’t mind treating transgendered people like whatever sex they want to be. But those obligations have some clear limitations in both cases, and I don’t think that makes society intolerant. > [@DocCathode](#): > > I don’t think we need to change things either. Women go in the women’s room. Men go in the men’s room. I just include pre op and non op MTFs as women, and pre op and non op FTMs as men. Based on what? Do they need a diagnosis from a licensed professional? Is it just enough if I feel that way? What should a club do if some random guy claims to be a woman, and wants to go on the womens’ side? ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/170 "2013-01-03T21:55:39Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > However, my point is this: as a practical matter, changing societal norms should be undertaken only if, after weighing the pros and cons, it is worth the effort. Where “the vast majority of pre-op transsexuals aren’t going to be comfortable completely stripping down in front of anyone”, and where there is at least arguably a reasonable basis for the norm, I can’t see it as being a priority. > > If I’m correct in the assumptions as to why the norm exists, ambiguous genitalia wouldn’t be a problem anywhere - sadly, someone whose genitals appear deformed isn’t going to pose as much of a concern, as someone with clearly-defined male genitals. I don’t feel there is a reasonable basis for the norm. Perhaps I should clarify that when I call peoples’ emotional response irrational, I also mean unreasonable. It seems like we understand each other, but disagree on what’s more important. To me, tolerance is something people shouldn’t be given a choice about. Just like you’re no longer allowed to have a problem with black people sharing your changing room, we need to force people who have a problem with sharing with transsexuals to either deal with it or just not go anywhere that might happen. @ Dorkness: I did answer your question. Your question was preceded by “if we accept transsexual AND TRANSGENDER PEOPLE etc”. I said no, no one’s saying transgenders should be allowed in the bathroom that differs from their genitals. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/171 "2013-01-03T22:06:15Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > @ Dorkness: I did answer your question. Your question was preceded by “if we accept transsexual AND TRANSGENDER PEOPLE etc”. I said no, no one’s saying transgenders should be allowed in the bathroom that differs from their genitals. Two notes: 1. I think plenty of people are saying that, actually. But here you go: I’m saying that. And here you go: that’s a silly technicality to the question that has nothing to do with the core of the question, so I’ll happily throw it aside, and say that you can answer only if we allow transsexuals the right to use the locker room that they conclude is most appropriate. Leave the rest of the question intact, please; this is the second time you’ve tried to avoid the question on a semantic quibble. If you choose not to answer it a third time, that’s your prerogative, but I hope you’ll choose to look at what the significant part of the question is (i.e., is there a significant risk that some cis-folk will abuse the situation, and if so, how do we mitigate that risk?) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/172 "2013-01-03T22:08:00Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > I don’t feel there is a reasonable basis for the norm. Perhaps I should clarify that when I call peoples’ emotional response irrational, I also mean unreasonable. > > It seems like we understand each other, but disagree on what’s more important. To me, tolerance is something people shouldn’t be given a choice about. Just like you’re no longer allowed to have a problem with black people sharing your changing room, we need to force people who have a problem with sharing with transsexuals to either deal with it or just not go anywhere that might happen. I look at these things through the lens of reasonable accomodation. As I said, I don’t think the societal norm in this case was created to discriminate against transpeople, or has the main effect of discriminating against transpeople - it’s simply an unfortunate side-effect of the rule than transpeople are, in theory, adversely affected by it. I say “in theory” because people keep saying that real-life transpeople would not, in general, make use of such facilities even if the societal norm was changed to allow it. You used the term “the vast majority” would not do so. You are not alone in that conclusion. Earlier in the thread, **Johanna** said as follows: > [@](#): > > Do you really believe that a pre-op trans person in a single-sex environment would get naked in front of other people and flaunt their “wrong stuff”? Trust me, it just does not happen. Having the “wrong stuff” is the source of a lifetime of pain and cruelty for trans people, and the last thing they’d want to do is flaunt it. What they want is to change it. To which **Una Persson** replied: > [@](#): > > You know what, you’re correct. I was going to address some of the other folks having issues with transpeople in the context within this thread, but I really think it boils down to the story beggaring belief. > > As I previously posted, and after further thought and chatting about this thread with a few transwomen community leaders I know, it is vanishingly rare for a pre-op transperson to expose themselves, for the very reasons you elaborate on. And the single time I _personally_ know of, the transwoman was around only other transwomen. My point is that it makes no sense to attempt to overturn a widely-held social norm (we can argue about how unreasonable/irrational it is) where those in actual fact adveresly affected by it are “vanishingly rare” (from **Una** ) or “it just does not hapopen” (from **Johanna** ) or “the vast majority” will not make use of it (you). ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/173 "2013-01-03T22:09:23Z")
I assumed that was clear, and addressed why in my followup post: no, cis people won’t be able to abuse it, because a transsexual will have ID appropriate to the changing room they’re using. Malthus, whether we get naked or not, we’re still adversely affected. We have to deal with the fear of being outed in the changing room - and that can happen with no genitals being seen. Adam’s apples, slipping up on the voice, you get outed by gossip, etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/174 "2013-01-03T22:11:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I suspect the main reason is that women are put in anxiety at the presence of naked men in the space where they are also naked, because fear of rape (of women by men) is a major concern for many women in our society. > > Most men would not really mind the presence of naked women when they change all that much, or at least not for that reason, and most men and women do not have the same fear of being raped by their own sex (at least, not a fear triggered simply by the presence of naked members of their own sex). Thanks for this. This is where the issue does become complicated. While I fully support transfolk being able to use facilities aimed at their gender, the issue with things like locker rooms is that: 1\> sexual violence is very prevalent – even knowing that the majority of men do not perpetrate such crimes, a really significant number of women are victims of it, and 2\> there’s little practical way, “on the street” so to speak, to tell the difference between someone who would commit such a crime and someone who wouldn’t. The impact here is that a rule allowing transwomen to use the women’s locker room runs into the issue of the staff not being qualified to tell if this individual is legitimately a woman, or some guy who thinks he can work the system to get himself a target. This “some guy” might not/probably wouldn’t happen often, but the fallout from it happening even once is huge for everyone involved. It would bury the business and the victim would be dealing with it for the rest of her life. Frankly, I’d be all for desegregating facilities were it not for the sexual violence problem. It’s something we have yet to get rid of (if we ever will to any significant extent), and it’s going to be a real safety (not just fear, real, physical safety) issue in any attempt to do so. Further complicating the issue is that transfolk have the same, legitimate fear for their safety – a transwoman forced to use the men’s locker room or otherwise change/shower with men runs a pretty high risk of getting assaulted, herself. I don’t have a good answer for this. The other part of this, in this specific case, the gender-segregated areas in this spa are not just locker rooms. If it were, people could change in private bathroom stalls and no one would even know if someone were trans (and as far as I’m concerned this is a fine approach for things like gym locker rooms). The changing area opens through a big “barn door” sized entryway into the wet spa, a big open room which includes stand-up showers with no privacy dividers, sit-down splash baths with minimal dividers (your ass is still out there for everyone to see), a cold pool, three hot pools, and a steam room. There is literally no place to go in this area where you won’t be seen starkers by everyone in the room. In other words, if you don’t want people to see you naked, you give up the use of half the facilities in the spa (and I’m not certain that showers aren’t required even if you’re going straight through to the co-ed, clothing-required dry spa area). So what do you do here? Which segregated area should a trans customer use? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/175 "2013-01-03T22:12:05Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > I assumed that was clear, and addressed why in my followup post: no, cis people won’t be able to abuse it, because a transsexual will have ID appropriate to the changing room they’re using. Ah, I understand. No, that wasn’t clear, because not all trans-folk have an appropriate ID, I believe. Am I right in thinking you’re suggesting this restriction, then–that a trans person wanting to use the appropriate locker room must have an appropriate ID, and if they don’t, businesses are free to forbid them to use the appropriate locker room? Would it also be appropriate for someone believing they see a man in the woman’s dressing room to contact management, and for management to single that person out for showing their ID? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/176 "2013-01-03T22:12:13Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > It seems like we understand each other, but disagree on what’s more important. To me, tolerance is something people shouldn’t be given a choice about. Yeah, but what exactly must everyone tolerate? Where does it stop, and how impartial, or inconvenienced should I have to be in the interest of tolerance? Should every private house be required to have a wheelchair ramp? Should I make no judgment about Muslim neighbor who thinks it’s okay to not allow his wife outside the house? What if my foreign friend wants to eat dogs? At what point is society allowed to have an opinion on the matter that is not dictated by a small minority of people. > [@Sevencl](#): > > Just like you’re no longer allowed to have a problem with black people sharing your changing room, we need to force people who have a problem with sharing with transsexuals to either deal with it or just not go anywhere that might happen. Geez. Not every aggrieved population is analogous to Black people. I really wish people would stop trying to use this shorthand to stifle debate. > [@Sevencl](#): > > @ Dorkness: I did answer your question. Your question was preceded by “if we accept transsexual AND TRANSGENDER PEOPLE etc”. I said no, no one’s saying transgenders should be allowed in the bathroom that differs from their genitals. So which bathroom a transgendered person uses will be dependent on whether they have had, or want to have surgery? ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/177 "2013-01-03T22:25:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Ah, I understand. > > No, that wasn’t clear, because not all trans-folk have an appropriate ID, I believe. Am I right in thinking you’re suggesting this restriction, then–that a trans person wanting to use the appropriate locker room must have an appropriate ID, and if they don’t, businesses are free to forbid them to use the appropriate locker room? Would it also be appropriate for someone believing they see a man in the woman’s dressing room to contact management, and for management to single that person out for showing their ID? Sure. Until society grows past gender-segregated locker rooms, that’s going to be an issue. @ Brickbacon; the analogy is apt whether you like it or not. At one point black people were segregated from white people in places like changing rooms. That’s just reality. As for your first question; I decline to address it. I’m not here to hear and solve all equality problems. I’m just explaining why I feel how I do on this one particular issue. And for your last question, no, surgery or desire for it is not a prerequisite to be transsexual. Some people have medical conditions that make it too risky, some transsexuals are comfortable with the genitals they have, others are dissatisfied with the possible results of surgery with today’s technology. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/178 "2013-01-03T22:34:21Z")
> [@bup](#): > > If someone who says you should go into the locker room that reflects your emotional and mental gender, even if your genitals and overall body look like the other gender, can explain what the reason is for a divided locker room, I would appreciate it. The first response might be that most of the time it works out that mental and body gender are equivalent. The second response might be that people’s gender is defined outside of their genitals. Say you go into a restaurant and meet a woman. She’s wearing a skirt and sweater, long styled hair, some jewelry, some makeup, she has female mannerisms, she doesn’t have prominent male physical traits, she appears to have breasts, and her conversation and interests all align with those of a typical woman…everyone, barring some wild-eyed transphobe, would mentally chalk her up as “woman” without bothering to perform a strip-search and check her genitals. Now place that same person in a spa, and find out that while all the aforementioned is still true, but she has a penis. She’s not hamming it up and waving it about like a piece of Laffy Taffy, she’s going about her business and getting dressed. OK, the easy thing to say is the crude, cruel, and shopworn “It’s a MAN, bay-be!” But reflect for a moment on what made her a woman at the restaurant. Grouping people by genitals is not a bad system because it works the vast majority of the time, with transsexuals being somewhere between 1/3,000 to 1/10,000 of the population (most post-2000 studies favor the first number, and some posit 1/1,000, but let’s not get into that). There’s nothing wrong in my opinion with assuming a default, but I also strongly feel, with every fiber of my being, that the most marginalized and discriminated against in our society, transsexuals, do deserve just a little help and a little patience from those who were fortunate not to be torn apart every day by the massive and overwhelming disconnect between their body and mind. Just a little human compassion, even if it leads to an awkward moment every now and then. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/179 "2013-01-03T22:41:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In the case of “no visible male genitals allowed in the woman’s change room” norm, the norm is very entrenched and there is at least _some_ reason for it (that women may be legitmately be put in some fear). The decisive factor, in my mind, is what I’ve learned in this very thread: that few real-life transpeople are, in fact, inconvenienced by the rule because due to their condition they are generally reluctant to appear naked in public anyway. > > Seems to me that in these conditions there is no really compelling reason to change the societal norm. It is unlike the case of “Black people cannot eat at the lunch counter” in a number of ways, but (for this analysis) mostly in the fact that Black people had no reluctance, aside from the societal norm in question, to eating at lunch counters and so were seriously inconvenienced by the rule. Your second paragraph brings up a good point, but I fear that it is too close for comfort to the argument used by country clubs and homes associations of the 1950’s when they denied blacks the ability to buy property - “none of them could afford it anyways, and even if they could, they wouldn’t feel comfortable outside their neighborhood.” And the fear of women of transsexuals in “their” places is real, oh believe me, I fully accept that, but we also have to weigh the benefit of cowtowing to an irrational fear. Despite a few calls for such, no one has presented any evidence of actual transwomen (and not cis-gendered males or CDs) raping or assaulting women who are strangers in toilets, spas, or other female spaces. I don’t doubt that with sufficient Googling one could find a case or two - after all, I read of a man who attempted to eat a bicycle once, so anything is possible. But how real is the fear, and if not real, how far do we go in accommodating this fear? It almost reminds me of the “strangers putting hypodermic needles in Halloween candy” urban legend. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/180 "2013-01-03T22:44:36Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > It is true that many of us are also just plain uncomfortable with the object of our loathing being seen by anyone. I personally had to learn not to look down before I would wash myself as a child. I know very few transwomen who want to see themselves naked, let alone allow anyone else to see them. Their distress is heartbreaking to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=10)