# Transgendered teen bound, strangled, beaten to death with shovel: Hate crime or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 1, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322 "2003-03-01T03:59:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/141 "2003-03-02T16:47:33Z")
[Here’s another one for you.](http://mlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-0/1046517224160834.xml?aanews) The dead person, Nikki Nicholas, has been quoted as saying that no surgery would ever take place. She lived and presented as a woman, though, so I’ll use “she” in reference to her. She was shot, her body was abandoned, and her murderers have not yet been caught. When her body was found, the police initially identified her as a woman, but they’re also saying that where (i.e. the location of the bullet wound) she was shot has not been disclosed. I know there’s not a lot of information to work with on this one, so if you don’t want to debate it, that’s fine. I’m tossing it in here because it looks to me like there might be something in common with Araujo’s murder, and because Nicholas’ body was found in Green Oak Township, where I grew up. And sorry about the bad header on the news article. Weird, because the Ann Arbor News is much better than that (I know, I worked there for eight years). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/142 "2003-03-02T16:50:21Z")
Wait…was her name Lida or Gwen? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/143 "2003-03-02T17:03:37Z")
I don’t think she had decided that yet, **Guinastasia**. ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/144 "2003-03-02T17:12:46Z")
Persephone…I don’t think there’s enough information to unqualifyingly say that the crime was motivated by the victim’s transgendered status. Certainly, it is a reasonable hypothesis, but you never know. Non-transgendered folk get beaten and killed every now and again, as you may be aware…it could be that this individual was killed for another reason altogether, and her transgendered status is incidental. I’m not saying that’s necessarily true, just that we don’t know from the facts of the crime. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/145 "2003-03-02T17:40:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*True story > > A young man in high school went into a bar to drink. He was approached by an older man who told him he had porno movies at his apartment, and invited the young man over. > > When the young man got there he found out the older man was gay and really just wanted sex with him. He hit the older man just once, but it was enough to kill him. Young man served 25 years in prison. > > Don’t hit anyone. \*\* Not to diminish the severity of murder, but I find this story virtually impossible to believe unless there is more to the story (ie he gutted him like a trout and ate him afterwards). A high school kid sentenced to 25 years for hitting and killing a gay man trying to seduce him? Not good behavior in any sense (by either party), but very unlikely to generate a 25 year capital murder sentence for a high schooler. Do you have any kind of a cite for this? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/146 "2003-03-02T19:00:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Splanky \* > \*\ ***mhendo** I find it rather unfortunate that you have to be so impatient, though. \*\* You’re right, and i’m sorry. Actually, my impatience wasn’t aimed at you so much. I knew that you had not made ANY posts since the one i critiqued, so i knew that it was possible that you hadn’t even seen my post. I’m aware that some of us have lives away from the computer screen. 🙂 My frustration was mainly directed at **Hermann** , who had made posts _since_ mine, but had not deigned to respond to my direct rebuttals of his argument. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/147 "2003-03-02T19:36:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Not good behavior in any sense (by either party), but very unlikely to generate a 25 year capital murder sentence for a high schooler. Do you have any kind of a cite for this? I know. It’s sad it’s so hard to believe that people who kill gay people are getting the same sentences other murderers get. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/148 "2003-03-02T19:37:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*I believe, based primarily on gut feel, that this was a hate crime. I also believe that the killers are vile brutes who deserve to be punished. Nothing justifies their actions. > > Having said that, and in the sincere hope this can lead to interesting discussion (i.e., not be interpreted as antagonistic), I believe that the penal code wording allows for the possibility that this is _not_ a hate crime. The “because of” wording is a little circular, it seems to me; it clearly assumes the presence of a bias against one of the characteristics itemized without expanding on what that means. > > Isn’t it still possible that a person could have no bias against transgendered individuals, respect their right to live as they choose, interact with them with dignity, and simultaneously be repulsed by the thought of personally engaging in sexual activity with a transgendered person? Aren’t those type of sexual preferences hard-wired (through whatever process) in all of us? > > And if that’s the case, why does the wording above demand your interpretation, **mhendo**? Can’t it be fairly asked whether personal sexual preferences–i.e., the acts we want to participate in ourselves, which by definition exclude certain other acts–are outside the realm of “bias”? And if they are, can’t it still be asked if a crime like the one in question was prompted _not_ by the killer’s hatred of a certain person’s characteristics, but purely because of that person’s deception? IOW, in the absence of “bias,” can there be a hate crime? > > Do you agree that one’s personal preferences for sexual activity do not constitue a de facto “bias”? If that’s the case, couldn’t a crime have been triggered purely by the violation of these preferences? > > Use a hypothetical that might help clarify: Using the “glory hole” scenario previously described (the person on the other side is NOT who the first person thinks it is), suppose there’s a third person involved. Suppose that third person does not in any way possess a characteristic that our “dupe” would find unappealing, undesirable, repulsive, etc. Hell, assume they’re great friends. > > But as a joke, that third person tricks the soon-to-be killer into engaging in the “glory hole” sex with the 17-year-old girl (the dupe thinks she is a man). If the dupe finds out and kills the third person (his buddy, not the girl), enraged over the deception, would that be a hate crime? How could it possibly be? > > And if that could be the case, why isn’t it at least possible that in a scenario where the third person is removed–i.e., the sexual partner is also the deceiver–that the crime is still not a hate crime? What would be substantially different? > > Let me close by reaffirming that I am not interested in justifying the acts of these horrible men. Those acts cannot be justified. I am only intellectually interested in discussing whether or not these acts are by definition hate crimes. \*\* I don’t think the CA statute “demands [my] interpretation” at all. I do believe that, given the details in the various articles linked to in this thread, that a pretty good case for bias against the transgendered and the homosexual can be made. The quotations from the article that i gave above, in which one of the accused was "wailing that ‘I can’t be gay,’’’ suggests, to me at least, that homophobia was a factor. I’m not sure that i agree with your assessment that sexual preferences are “hard-wired” in everyone. But even if i did, i’m not sure i support your assessment of the situation anyway. I certainly agree that each of us has his or her own sexual preferences, and that there are certain acts that we don’t want to participate in. But, in my opinion, to kill someone for deceiving us into committing a sex act that we wouldn’t otherwise do demonstrates a level of hatred that transcends the simple issue of deception. As others on this thread have pointed out, the accused were apparently happy enough to fuck the victim up the ass, so it’s not the actual act itself that they had a problem with. What they had a problem with was that the ass in question happened to belong to a biological male. A lot of this depends on your definition of bias. You say that "one’s personal preferences for sexual activity do not constitute a de facto “bias.” Actually, it seems to me that, in a certain sense, they do. I’m a straight guy, and as such i have a personal preference not to have sex with men; you might say that i’m biased against gay sex, or at least against having gay sex myself. But if i picked up a woman in a bar, and we got home and she gave me oral sex, and it then turned out that “she” was a cross-dresser or a transgender who actually had male equipment, i like to think that i would be able to deal with the situation without beating the person to death. I would probably be angry at the deception, but violence isn’t going to change the fact that i’ve had my cock in their mouth. Nor does the fact that this has happened make me gay. I maintain that to kill someone for this type of deception demonstrates a hatred that goes beyond the deception itself and reflects a bias against particular groups of people, and not just a preference for particular sexual activities. The problem with the “deception only” motivation is that deception in order to get someone to have sex with you is an old trick, used by men and women alike. It is also used most frequently, i’d be willing to bet (although i don’t have figures, obviously) in the heterosexual world, _between_ men and women. I know guys who’ve lied to women to get them in the sack, and i’m sure it happens the other way around too. Yet, despite this, the only time we seem to hear of violence and death resulting from such a deception is when the deception involves a person’s gender rather than, say, how much money they make or whether or not they are married. In terms of the analogy you provide at the end of your post, it would probably be possible to charge that person with a hate crime if he said something like “women are filthy, disgusting creatures. I can’t believe i put my dick in her.” IOW, if he said something that indicated a hatred of, or bias against women in general. I know this argument can end up becoming rather circular, but i think that killing someone for a petty deception like this is, in itself, indicative of hatred. But it is also the reason that i think hate crime legislation is not a great idea in general. I think we should just punish the acts, and doing that does not require knowing exactly what the perpetrators’ motivation was. I realize that my position is one that is difficult to support with statistics, and that no-one except the accused in this case can ever really know what was in their heads, but it did seem to me that, the way the CA statute is worded, the bringing of a hate crimes charge is within reason. And the DA obviously thought so too. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/149 "2003-03-02T20:07:21Z")
I haven’t seen it mentioned here, but it isn’t a requirement that the victim of a hate crime be a menber of the group the hate is directed against. If someone murders a person because they believe that person to be homosexual, he/she is guilty of a hate crime. Regardless of whether the victim is or is not a homosexual. Did another poster alrerady make this point? See what I’m getting at, hermann? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/150 "2003-03-02T20:53:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mhendo \* > \*\*But if i picked up a woman in a bar, and we got home and she gave me oral sex, and it then turned out that “she” was a cross-dresser or a transgender who actually had male equipment, i like to think that i would be able to deal with the situation without beating the person to death. I would probably be angry at the deception, but violence isn’t going to change the fact that i’ve had my cock in their mouth. Nor does the fact that this has happened make me gay. \*\* I agree with you. I would be angry at the deception, but that would not in my mind justify violence. But that’s me (and you). In the city where I grew up people have shot each other over parking spaces. I do not buy the position that the level of rage means that this must be homosexual hatred. People have killed over the most trivial of things; there’s no accounting for people’s irrational behavior. And, again, that doesn’t justify killing the person, or make the person any less dead. It just says to me that it’s possible that this is not a hate crime as I understand that definition. And I think you misunderstood my hypothetical. I was suggesting that the “dupe” killed not the girl, but the friend who played a joke on him. Assume he had the reaction you suggested, but that he directed his rage at his “friend.” Read it again and see if you have the same reaction. Does it at least suggest the possibility that this needn’t be a hate crime by definition? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/151 "2003-03-02T21:05:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*And I think you misunderstood my hypothetical. I was suggesting that the “dupe” killed not the girl, but the friend who played a joke on him. Assume he had the reaction you suggested, but that he directed his rage at his “friend.” Read it again and see if you have the same reaction. Does it at least suggest the possibility that this needn’t be a hate crime by definition? \*\* That’s right, because the person being killed is not a member of the group that is hated by the perpetrator, and the perpetrator knows this for a fact. Look, i realize that there are grey areas whenever we try to ascribe motive to someone. But, in the case to which this thread is devoted, i think the story we have indicates more than just anger at deception. Whether the DA is able to make the hate crimes aspect in court in another issue, but even if s/he doesn’t, these guys are going to spend plenty of time behid bars if found guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/152 "2003-03-02T21:11:42Z")
**Mhendo** , I too noticed with interest and approval your quoting of the California statute. What concerned me most was getting the clarification of the identity of the victim straightened out, before we discussed whether it was a hate crime. Since it does become an issue what the motivations of the accused were in killing Ms. Araujo, the concept that she was in fact a person with serious gender dysphoria trying to determine if she was in fact a woman despite having male genitalia (which she seems to have settled on after some extensive internal questioning, based on comments by her mother and priest) seemed important to me. What I’m wondering is why people are so determined to portray her as a male homosexual perpetrating a deception, rather than a (psychological) young woman with a male body (and no “Lesbian trapped…” jokes, please) trying to live out the gender role she felt that she “really” was, is so important to people. Surely nobody is suggesting that them killing a homosexual boy is less odious a crime than killing a transgendered person? ---
**Author:** ![Mothchunks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a587f6/32.png) [@Mothchunks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mothchunks)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/153 "2003-03-02T21:34:04Z")
\>think about that if you ever happen to find yourselves “surprised” as those four men were.\< Why don’t you go surprise four men and then take a short survey to discern their reactions and post it here. I’ve learned so much in this thread: 1 A person with a penis is not a man 2 A man who has sex with another man is not a homosexual. I suppose that if a black man went in disguise to a KKK rally, removed his mask and shouted ?Jefferson Davis was a fag! Where are all the white women?? and was subsequently thrashed, you could call it a hate crime, since it was racially motivated; but don?t you think he was looking for trouble? \>referring to a transgendered person as he is as offensive as calling a gay person a fag\< But what if the transgendered person is a female in the process of becoming male? According to your previous posts, she should have the right to be referred to as ?he.? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/154 "2003-03-02T21:52:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\ ***Mhendo** , I too noticed with interest and approval your quoting of the California statute. What concerned me most was getting the clarification of the identity of the victim straightened out, before we discussed whether it was a hate crime. Since it does become an issue what the motivations of the accused were in killing Ms. Araujo, the concept that she was in fact a person with serious gender dysphoria trying to determine if she was in fact a woman despite having male genitalia (which she seems to have settled on after some extensive internal questioning, based on comments by her mother and priest) seemed important to me. > > What I’m wondering is why people are so determined to portray her as a male homosexual perpetrating a deception, rather than a (psychological) young woman with a male body (and no “Lesbian trapped…” jokes, please) trying to live out the gender role she felt that she “really” was, is so important to people. Surely nobody is suggesting that them killing a homosexual boy is less odious a crime than killing a transgendered person? \*\* I agree with you here. The problem is that notions of sex and gender are essentially interchangeable terms for many people, and many are often unwilling even to question the binarism that characterises so much of the dialog on these issues. You’re either a man or a woman, they say; there is no grey area. The concept of gender as a sociological construction is quite a difficult one to grasp, especially if you’ve been brought up to think that gender is a simple reflection of genetics. It’s not difficult to see why those who don’t have a particular interest in the topic find the whole thing a little challenging and get somewhat defensive. It’s also worth remembering that, even among those who have no problem with such concepts, there is not total agreement. Some, for example, agree with Judith Butler’s arguments that even one’s “biological sex” is not the scientifically objective category that many think it is. Others reject Butler’s view as too radical. And there are myriad others debates within the GLBT community on these issues. I think, in terms of the hate crime statute, it probably won’t matter whether it is seen as bias against “homosexuals” or “transgendered”; the result will probably be the same in either case. I agree, however, that these issues are important to discuss, and that those who simply categorize Araujo as a deceptive homosexual boy are uninformed regarding crucial issues of sex and gender. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/155 "2003-03-02T21:53:48Z")
> [@](#): > > **(Mothchunks)** I suppose that if a black man went in disguise to a KKK rally… I’m just wondering why it’s so important to you to have the right to overrule other people’s labels of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/156 "2003-03-02T21:54:34Z")
That’s right, **Mothchunks** , a female-to-male transsexual is a “he.” Congratulations, that only took four pages. I noticed no one has addressed the question I posted two pages ago–I guess I should be grateful, I’m pretty sure what the answers would be . . . ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/157 "2003-03-02T22:32:50Z")
**Mothchunks** make’s a reasonable request; > [@](#): > > Why don’t you go surprise four men and then take a short survey to discern their reactions and post it here. I tried. They want you to come on up to SF, on Castro, and make your own little survey. One of them thinks he knows you. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/158 "2003-03-02T23:56:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mothchunks \* > think about that if you ever happen to find yourselves “surprised” as those four men were. I watched an episode of Jerry Springer in which a beautiful female offered a sensual massage. A macho punter leapt onto the stage and enjoyed every moment, until Jerry explained the masseuse was a pre-op female-to-male transsexual. The punter ran back into the audience. (I suppose you would have expected him to beat the transexual to death, but not everyone thinks like you :rolleyes: ) It occurred to me from the context (just like picking up people in bars) that something unusual was likely to happen. As a heterosexual, I would prefer to know something about in advance about people massaging me, but I didn’t get too worked up over this incident. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mothchunks \* > Why don’t you go surprise four men and then take a short survey to discern their reactions and post it here. Well of course it does depend who the 4 men are. Friends of mine (civilised, cultured) would express disappointment and probably give the lady some polite advice. (If really annoyed, they might call her names.) Homophobic thugs (with the sort of attitude your posts display) would no doubt consider their ‘manhood’ was at stake and commit a violent crime. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mothchunks \* > I’ve learned so much in this thread: > 1 A person with a penis is not a man > 2 A man who has sex with another man is not a homosexual. It doesn’t appear you have learnt anything in this thread. 1. A pre-op female-to-male transexual has a penis, but doesn’t consider herself a man, and is prepared to undergo extensive surgery, counselling and risk public humiliation from ignorant boors (with the sort of attitude your posts display) in order to achieve some happiness. 2. Presumably even you would accept that a man who has sex with both men and women is bi-sexual, not homosexual. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mothchunks \* > I suppose that if a black man went in disguise to a KKK rally, removed his mask and shouted ?Jefferson Davis was a fag! Where are all the white women?? and was subsequently thrashed, you could call it a hate crime, since it was racially motivated; but don?t you think he was looking for trouble? Indeed. Of course the attitude your posts display is more like that black man walking unknowingly past a KKK rally and being tortured and murdered. (Perhaps by being dragged behind a truck…) Don’t you think he was looking for trouble? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/159 "2003-03-03T00:01:56Z")
Sorry - that last post should have read ‘pre-op male-to-female transsexual’ throughout. I’m so annoyed by that, I want to beat someone to death. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Florentine\_Pogen\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Florentine\_Pogen\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Florentine_Pogen_1)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/160 "2003-03-03T00:14:31Z")
Let me ask you something, **Polycrap** : if you happened to meet Mrs. Araujo and proceeded in having a sexual encounter with her (be it anal or oral, or whatever), would you have any problem with the fact that she had a penis? Or would this have no bearing on your decision of having sex with her. I do understand the view of the transgendered. They believe they were born a male/female in a female/male’s body. Therefore, their social behavior do not match with the physical characteristics given to them at birth. The thing is, that doesn’t make it ok to advertise yourself as a woman- _especially_ to someone who you intend on having sex with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322.md?page=9)