# Transgendered teen bound, strangled, beaten to death with shovel: Hate crime or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 1, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322 "2003-03-01T03:59:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Florentine\_Pogen\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Florentine\_Pogen\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Florentine_Pogen_1)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/161 "2003-03-03T00:17:07Z")
And that was supposed to be **Polycarp** , I didn’t mean to be offensive (I don’t even know you). ---
**Author:** ![Mothchunks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a587f6/32.png) [@Mothchunks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mothchunks)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/162 "2003-03-03T01:39:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mangeorge \* > \*\ ***Mothchunks** make’s a reasonable request; > > I tried. > They want you to come on up to SF, on Castro, and make your own little survey. One of them thinks he knows you. \*\* Well if you were here I could have my girlfriend take that survey and post the results on your face; but as that is unlikely to happen, consider it done “in the spirit.” Maybe the simple lesson for everyone is “Don’t deceive people and don’t hurt people.” ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/163 "2003-03-03T02:17:25Z")
I think that this thread raises an interesting question about deception. If someone makes an assumption about you and you don’t bother to dispell it are you decieving anyone? For example lets say there is a person you know. He assumes that you are [insert trait here] because of the way you look, and you don’t disabuse him of that idea. Is this deception on your part? In my own opinion while you should try to avoid something like that his assumptions are his responsibility and not yours. So I guess the moral of the story is if you ask someone what their sex is and they don’t tell you you can’t be too suprised by what you find. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/164 "2003-03-03T02:24:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*I know. It’s sad it’s so hard to believe that people who kill gay people are getting the same sentences other murderers get. ☹ \*\* **matt** , the story was that the kid hit the guy once and the guy dropped dead. Maybe he had a heart attack, I don’t know. Not pleasant, but more like I’m thinking if a creepy guy tried to seduce me and I slapped him across the face kind of thing. However, I think it’s a far-fetched story. I mean, he hit the guy ONCE and killed him? There has to be more to the story than that. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/165 "2003-03-03T02:30:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mothchunks \* > \*\*Well if you were here I could have my girlfriend take that survey and post the results on your face; but as that is unlikely to happen, consider it done “in the spirit.” > > Maybe the simple lesson for everyone is “Don’t deceive people and don’t hurt people.” \*\* Why would your girlfriend want to post _anything_ on my _face_, **mothchunks**? And I think the simple lesson here is “Don’t get violent with people”. There is no lesson here about deception. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/166 "2003-03-03T03:08:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Florentine Pogen \* > \*\*Let me ask you something, **Polycarp** : if you happened to meet Mrs. Araujo and proceeded in having a sexual encounter with her (be it anal or oral, or whatever), would you have any problem with the fact that she had a penis? Or would this have no bearing on your decision of having sex with her. > > I do understand the view of the transgendered. They believe they were born a male/female in a female/male’s body. Therefore, their social behavior do not match with the physical characteristics given to them at birth. > > The thing is, that doesn’t make it ok to advertise yourself as a woman- _especially_ to someone who you intend on having sex with. \*\* Thanks for the correction, **Florentine** (I edited the quote above to what you intended). Well, in view of the fact that I’m a married man who doesn’t commit adultery, the issue wouldn’t come up. But, to explore the question as a hypothetical exercise, I’d be startled and probably a bit shocked to find out she had a penis – and probably inclined to actually sit down with her and learn more about how she deals with who she is. To be completely honest, I think it would be somewhat offsetting in terms of sex for me, but not totally so, so that I would probably follow through to climax if I were horny enough, and do the conversation after. And I think that you fail to grasp the important point here – that M2F transgendered people conceive of themselves as really women, despite what bodily evidence might say – that can be cured by hormone therapy and surgery – and they don’t see themselves as “deceiving” anybody in any way by living as what they really are. I’m not sufficiently acquainted with data about the transgendered to state authoritatively what the numbers are, but it’d be my guess that over 80% of them intend to go through, or are in the process of going through, the full gender reassignment regimen (which I outlined above). In Gwen’s mind, she was a woman who still, inconveniently, had a penis and no breasts. It was the assumption of the men who killed her that she was a woman complete with all the pertinent genital equipment, and that she was a gay man who was “deceiving” them. ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/167 "2003-03-03T03:16:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*And I think that you fail to grasp the important point here – that M2F transgendered people conceive of themselves as really women, despite what bodily evidence might say – that can be cured by hormone therapy and surgery – and they don’t see themselves as “deceiving” anybody in any way by living as what they really are. \*\* Actually Polycarp, I think you misunderstand one critical point here. There are those of us in the world that have a pretty “black and white” no-penis rule. I totally understand and sympathize with transgendered people, and absolutely believe that their brain structure fits the gender they believe themselves to be. They have the right to live the life they so choose, with people who are comfortable with them personally and physically. But as many of us have a “no-penis” rule, once it gets down to that level, physical anatomy becomes rather important. Transgendered people are not deceiving anyone by living as female (assuming MTF trans)…but I do feel that they have an obligation to inform potential partners of their status before sexual activity takes place. I believe this to be true even for post-op transsexuals. Anyone who has ANYTHING important about themselves that may affect a partner’s decision to be with them is morally obligated to share that information, IMHO, before sexual activity occurs. Whether that information is life threatening is not relevant. People have the right to make informed decisions. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/168 "2003-03-03T03:33:56Z")
Maybe you should just accept the fact that some stranger you pick up for sex may be hiding all kinds of things. She might have a disease, she might have a pimp, she might have a dick. That’s just too bad for you. The lesson is don’t be a moron who has sex with total strangers. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/169 "2003-03-03T03:53:02Z")
Oh god, now I have to agree with Diogenes! What the fuck? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/170 "2003-03-03T03:55:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*The lesson is don’t be a moron who has sex with total strangers. \*\* Yes, with this I absolutely agree. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/171 "2003-03-03T04:45:35Z")
[http://www.gender.org/remember/people/gwenaraujo.html](http://www.gender.org/remember/people/gwenaraujo.html) Jaron Chase Nabors, one of Gwen’s killers will serve 11 years in prison as part of a plea bargin. 11 years. IANAL, but 11 years for killing someone? ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/172 "2003-03-03T08:50:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > \*\* > Now if I **do** happen to be checking what’s in a man’s underwear, for reasons that are nobody else’s business but his and mine, and I find out that in fact, he’s bio-female, I certainly don’t have any right to “beat the hell out of him”. I don’t even, IMHO, have any right to assert that he’s “really” a woman and start calling him “she” or referring to him as a “lesbian”. > \*\* That is not what the OP is even trying to say. He is not saying that these guys had any “right” to beat the hell out of anyone. He is saying that the REASON for the beating is not a hate crime. What makes you think that they didn’t just beat the guy to death because they were pissed? It happens quite often. Just because the guy was gay doesn’t automatically mean that that is the reason they beat him. I am not defending them in any way, I think that everyone has missed what the OP was even saying. And, FTR, call me uneducated I guess, but I think that having a cock makes you a male, having a vagina makes you a female. Cut and dry. Anyone who falls into “both” categories is a hermaphrodite. Anyone who has no sex organs is a enuech (sp?). 4 categories. 4 criteria. Everyone falls into one of them. There is no confusion on physical identification. I have no problem with people identifying themselves however they want to , but it is ridiculous for people to act like someone is a POS because he doesn’t agree with the ident. ---
**Author:** ![bo989](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@bo989](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bo989)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/173 "2003-03-03T08:57:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stinkpalm \* > **And, FTR, call me uneducated I guess, but I think that having a cock makes you a male, having a vagina makes you a female. Cut and dry.** Your uneducated. Furthermore, you’ve managed to offend a whole new group of people with your thoughtless comments. Could you look a man who lost his genitals in botched surgery in the face and tell him he is no longer a man? I’m almost afraid to hear the answer. ---
**Author:** ![bo989](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@bo989](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bo989)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/174 "2003-03-03T08:58:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bo989 \* > \*\*Your uneducated. \*\* :o What a goof! Of course I meant, “you’re uneducated.” Oh well, at least now I get to say it twice. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/175 "2003-03-03T09:24:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bo989 \* > \*\*Your uneducated. Furthermore, you’ve managed to offend a whole new group of people with your thoughtless comments. Could you look a man who lost his genitals in botched surgery in the face and tell him he is no longer a man? I’m almost afraid to hear the answer. \*\* Get a grip on reality. It is impossible to even discuss anything like this with people like you bo. There is nothing anyone could say to change your mind so why even bother? You are just going to throw out every silly-ass 1 in 10 million chance situation against what I say, right? “What would you call a woman who got zapped by a penis gun against her will and now has a penis instead of a vagina?” “What would you call a hermaphrodite who wishes on a star to have a cock/vagina and wakes up one morning with a cock and no vagina?” EVERY typical situation has an atypical situation, however unlikely that it will arise, and those atypical situations are dealt with as they come. If we werent allowed to affix labels to things in society there would be mass confusion don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/176 "2003-03-03T10:32:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*I agree with you. I would be angry at the deception, but that would not in my mind justify violence. But that’s me (and you). In the city where I grew up people have shot each other over parking spaces. I do not buy the position that the level of rage means that this must be homosexual hatred. People have killed over the most trivial of things; \*\* But that’s not what we’re talking about here. It wasn’t a trivial thing to the defendents. > [@](#): > > ``I can’t be gay,’’ Merel said sobbing, according to Nabors, after learning that Araujo, whom he had sex with, was anatomically male. You’ve just been decieved, and rightfully angry at the deception, but do you break down, sobbing that you “can’t be _gay_” if you have no hatred for homosexuals in general. I don’t think so, Also, we’re not talking about someone becoming enraged and snapping and lashing out. We’re talking about a torture and murder that took _hours_. Look, I’m no fan of the hate crime statute, but we have it and I think it’s applicable here. And even if we didn’t, I think these guys should get the lethal injection. ---
**Author:** ![bo989](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@bo989](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bo989)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/177 "2003-03-03T10:32:38Z")
Stinkpalm: Have you ever heard of botched circumcisions? Its common enough that there is a label for it (since you love labels so much.) Its called “ablation.” Botched circumcisions are far more common than you make them out to be. They certainly don’t involve a “magic gun.” For a tremendously strong and brave example of the type of people you are attempting to marginalize, read: As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised As a Girl, by John Colapinto. It is a deeply emotional and disturbing account of the consequences of attempting to impose a specific gender onto someone who disagrees. The fact that you are so closed to the possibility that people exist who don’t fit neatly into your four categories demonstrates that you don’t actually know very many people. It is you Stinkpalm who needs to “get a grip on reality” and realize that humanity is compromised of a whole range of different individuals with different experiences who don’t fit neatly into little boxes. I would also like to admit that I have been strong-headed in debating within this thread. However, my arguments are for acceptance and understanding, while your arguments breed discrimination and ignorance. Furthermore, I’m surprised that you responded so vehemently to my accusation that you are uneducated, since it was clear that you expected to be labeled as such. Finally, I agree with you that labels serve an important purpose in society. However, two qualifications exist: (i) Labels are of limited usefulness. Labels are useful for quick on-the-fly categorization, but the more you get to know someone, the more apparent it is that no individual can be described by a simple label. (ii) Labels must be used with respect. It is true that the label “male” described Gwen at the genetic level, however, this is not term she identified with. By the same token, the label “nigger”\* describes a black man, however, this is certainly not the term most black men identify with. I and the other posters on this board are simply asking that you show Gwen the same respect you have learned (I hope) to show your black friends and neighbors. \*I apologize for the use of this word; however, I felt it was necessary to get my point across. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/178 "2003-03-03T11:08:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Have you ever heard of botched circumcisions? Its common enough that there is a label for it (since you love labels so much.) Its called “ablation.” Botched circumcisions are far more common than you make them out to be. They certainly don’t involve a “magic gun.” This means nothing more to me than it did the first time you said it bo. Give me a cite from a half reliable source showing me some numbers of people who completely lose their genitalia due to botched surgeries and then we can continue with this line. And, FTR, I may not have been explicit enough in my post. I meant that anyone BORN with the genatalia situations desrcibed fall under those labels. I figured that would be understood since we are talking about people dealing with the way they were born in this thread, but apparently not. > [@](#): > > I would also like to admit that I have been strong-headed in debating within this thread. However, my arguments are for acceptance and understanding, while your arguments breed discrimination and ignorance How do my arguements breed dicrimination and ignorance? And just because you think you are fighting a “just cause” does not make you any more right than it makes me wrong. A lot of people think they are helping the world when they really aren’t doing anything at all with their arguements other than spinning tires. > [@](#): > > Labels must be used with respect. It is true that the label “male” described Gwen at the genetic level, however, this is not term she identified with. As far as this crime goes it doesn’t matter what Gwen identified with. Do you think Gwen really thought that 99% of the people in that club would identify Gwen that way? No. Gwen knew that the person Gwen was having sex with thought Gwen was a girl and that if Gwen had revealed that Gwen was a man that the sex would probably not have happened. It is all about what the guy who had sex with Gwen knew. If he would have gone thru with it (sex) after finding out then so be it. I don’t know if that makes him gay or bi or whatever. I really don’t care. Dont read if reading “gay” activities offends you. I have a good friend who is gay. Even though I am straight he was always very attracted to me. Once we were sitting around my place playing PS2 and he said he wanted to blow me and that he had wanted to for a really long time. I had never done anything with a man and really had no desire to because I don’t find them attractive, but blowjobs feel good and he is my friend and I am secure with myself so I let him. It was good, it has happened a couple times since, and we are still good friends. I have never done anything other than let him do this to me when he offers. I am not attracted to him, or any other man, but if this situation makes me gay or bi then I guess I am though I dont feel like I am. The thing about my story is that I knew what I was getting into. I wasn’t tricked. If some guy dressed up like a girl and tricked me into letting him do that to me then I would be pissed. I don’t like being tricked. It doesn’t matter how someone identifies themselves when they are dealing with other people. It also matters how the person they are dealing with identifies them. Its a 2 way street. ---
**Author:** ![Iteki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eada6e/32.png) [@Iteki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iteki)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/179 "2003-03-03T13:32:42Z")
First up, I am not a GDer, so go easy on me here. I don’t understand that people have such a hard time understanding the concept of “hate crime”. What it boils down to is this, a crime that contributes to an atmosphere of intimidation within a group of specific types of people. In this case, the _severity_ of the crime was quite obviously based upon these guys going “oh no, I was attracted to a man”. The reason for the severity was based in that. Had they smacked her face and never talked to her again, it would likely not have been a hate crime. Hate crimes are ones that can lead to a greater level of fear in the members communities upon which they are commited. This is why there is a difference between spray-painting “Bob was here!” on the walls of a synagogue, and spraying a swastika. The result of one, is a case of vandalism, the other is not only vandalism, but vandalism with the intent to intimidate jewish people. What is complicated? ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322/180 "2003-03-03T13:32:44Z")
I read the story, looks like a clear case of a brutal murder. I say give them the death penalty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-teen-bound-strangled-beaten-to-death-with-shovel-hate-crime-or-not/158322.md?page=10)