I’m not going to bother trying to explain transexual gender identity to you because I think I’d be wasting my time, but are you seriously asserting that they were, in any way, justified in “punishing” the victim? I think you’re flirting with a pit thread here Hermann.
So you are OK with male homosexuals misreprepresenting themselves as females? And that if if the heterosexual males find out about it, they should be OK with it?
Psssst… that Pit Thread is a dude.
They have neither the moral or legal right to punish as they see fit.
Clear enough?
Who says I’m a pinheaded barbarian who must avenge every wrong with violence?
Hermann, are you a Christian, by any chance?
BTW, all you people, I am mostly upset at the way the story is written. The story is written that the male homosexual Araujo is a female, believe it or not. And that despite the fact that that the male homosexual Araujo fooled heterosexuals into having sex with him, that it was a “hate crime” for the males to take action action him.
While I don’t condone the killing of Araujo, I wonder why it is called a “hate crime”
No, what he’s saying, quite clearly, is that these guys, whatever their faults were in this case, should not be charged with “hate crimes” (which I understand to be crimes involving violence based on sexuality or race, just to state what I read it as).
I see where you’re coming from, dude. This person misrepresented him/her self to these guys for the purposes of seduction and they just taught him/her a lesson for lying.
But you’re wrong. When they found out the truth, it can be reasonably argued that they bet him/her up because he/she was homosexual.
No matter what, it was wrong.
Also, before I catch hell, I’m never quite sure what to call people like that, hence the “he/she” thing.
Hey, that’s one of the risks you take with picking up skanks in bars. If a guy find’s he’s been deceived, he can just leave the situation. He has no right at all to resort to violence, and he sure as hell has no right to kill anybody.
Besides which, if there were never any deception of any kind involved, how many of us would ever get laid? Except of course for those of us who look like a blend of Fabio and George Clooney and intellects that combine the best of Wittgenstein and Feynmann. But the rest of you dudes would really be in trouble.
Speaking of trans-gender issues and deception, has anyone ever seen Ann Coulter and Tuckler Carlson in the same room? Just asking.
Hermann, I am curious what you think makes a person transgendered. Your post would make it seem you have no clue.
Beyond that, this thread has made me indignant. To imply that the murderous violence of the four men was brought on by anger at being deceived is outrageous.
Hermann, do you believe these men would have reacted the same way if the victim had been a genetic woman who lied in order to get these men into bed? Perhaps she would claim she had her labia pierced in order to get some attention. Would the four men have beaten this genetic female so viciously to death upon discovering her genitals weren’t as described? Of course not, because no deception could elicit such a violent and inhuman reaction. The reason this poor girl is no longer with us is because of her gender identity. That constitutes a hate crime where I live!
Airman, I don’t blame you for not knowing the terminology to use, as such education is desperately lacking in schools, the media, and society in general. I only hope that instead of just stating your ignorance on this particular matter away, you will seek to educate yourself so that in the future you can treat such persons with more respect.
How exactly can a person of any identity “fool heterosexuals into having sex with him”? Once the bumping of nasties is about to begin, so to speak, wouldn’t they notice she had some extra bits?
Um, why do you refer to this male as a “girl”?
Also, her “gender” identity has nothing to do with anything. The reason he was beat to death is because he fooled other men into believing he was female. That and the fact that he played the part of a female and fooled(raped?) other men into having sex with him.
Raped?
One would think, but not always. What if a female homosexual posed as a man, and engaged in oral sex with another woman?
Hermann, were you at this actually event? If so, I can’t see why you are so certain of the motivations of these four men.
Second, you did not address my original point. Do you believe that the men would have killed this girl if she had been an “actual girl” (I use the term only so you may better understand my point) and lied to them about some part of her anatomy? Perhaps she stuffed her bra? Do you think that these men would have killed her when the tissues fell out? Please answer this question directly.
Third, I refer to this genetic male as a girl because there as difference between someone’s sex and someone’s gender. I am referring to her gender, which is purely a psychological and cultural construct.
That should read:
“Hermann, were you actually at this event?”
My apologies.
Well, raped is not really what I meant. While that sex was not “forced”, it was certainly under false pretences, and with a different sex than anticipated.
So, as a matter of terminology, despite what their anatomy is, the gender is purely independent? If I wanted to call myself a girl I could?
I’m just curious, since I really don’t have any idea. I’ve never heard anything like that before.
HC: Actually, it was not Ms Araujo, it was Mr Araujo.
Since when do you call a man “Ms”?
Also, it doesnt matter that Mr. Araujo identified himself as female. He was still a male.
A-nope. Only if you’re using a strict and somewhat arbitrary biological-sex definition in which “born with a penis” = “male” and “born with a vagina” = “female”. (Which leaves you with no way to characterize biological intersexuals, people born with both male and female sex organs.)
Gender identification, in the view of most psychologists, is actually a lot more complicated than that. There’s the biological gender(s) you were born with, and then there’s the gender(s) you personally identify with. There are plenty of people who happen to have penises who think of themselves as women, just as automatically and naturally as I do (I’m bio-female). There are plenty of people who happen to have breasts and vaginas who automatically and naturally identify as male. That’s what “transgendered” means. (If they get surgical treatment to change their genital organs to match their personal gender identification, then they’re called “transsexual”.)
This is not necessarily related to your sexual orientation, either. Some transgendered people who identify as male are attracted to women and some to men. Some transgendered people who identify as female are attracted to women and some to men. Someone like Ms. Araujo, a bio-male who identifies as a woman and is attracted to men, is not a “male homosexual”; she is a transgendered female with a heterosexual orientation.
You may not like that way of looking at the issue, but you don’t get to declare it invalid just because you personally prefer the old-fashioned strict biological definition of gender. IMHO, gender identification is like religious or racial identification: the individual is the final authority on what category he/she belongs in. If somebody tells me she’s a woman, then as far as I’m concerned she’s a woman, and I don’t need to check what’s in her underwear to convince myself. Same if somebody tells me he’s a man.
Now if I do happen to be checking what’s in a man’s underwear, for reasons that are nobody else’s business but his and mine, and I find out that in fact, he’s bio-female, I certainly don’t have any right to “beat the hell out of him”. I don’t even, IMHO, have any right to assert that he’s “really” a woman and start calling him “she” or referring to him as a “lesbian”.
I can certainly call off the encounter and explain that I’m not attracted to bio-female men, and I can be kind of freaked out or even angry that he didn’t let me know about such a thing beforehand, but that’s it. Beating somebody—especially beating them to death, good lord—is so violently out of line as a response to such a deception that I can certainly see why somebody might characterize it as a “hate crime”.
The reason he was beat to death is because he fooled other men into believing he was female. That and the fact that he played the part of a female and fooled(raped?) other men into having sex with him.
Er, the reason she was beaten to death is that the men she picked up were violent criminal brutes. They had some cause to be angry with her for not being honest about being bio-male, but she should not be held responsible for what they did to her.
And fooling a sex partner about your bio-sex certainly does not qualify as rape, AFAIK; it would be at most akin to not telling a sex partner that you have an STD. If you don’t want to have sex with bio-male women, you can always ask them about it beforehand. If you don’t trust them to tell you the truth, you can demand to examine the merchandise in a good light before starting the dance.