# Transition of horses to autos in urban areas **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 5, 2009, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transition-of-horses-to-autos-in-urban-areas/501968 "2009-07-05T12:01:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![misling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ab097/32.png) [@misling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misling)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transition-of-horses-to-autos-in-urban-areas/501968/21 "2009-07-06T13:46:46Z")
On the side roads around Lancaster Pennsylvania, you still see horse drawn carriages every day. The Amish drive them. They go in the outside lanes and pull over to the shoulder every so often to let cars pass. They have orange triangle reflector signs on the back of the carriages. The carriages have rubber tires. They avoid the high speed highways mostly. Some of them are family vehicles and others are delivering various things such as vegetables and baked goods. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transition-of-horses-to-autos-in-urban-areas/501968/22 "2009-07-06T14:30:45Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > The transion from horses followed a natural course. At one time most cities had laws requiring someone to walk infront of the car with a red falg worning people that a car was coming. Also the speed limits for cars in cities was 3 to 5 mph. As the car became more usefull and more on the road cities began to change these laws, that allowed more cars on the streets. I challenge that. It sounds like you’re referring to the [Red Flag Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Act) in the UK, which was relaxed in 1896. That’s before autos had any real presence (there were only [200 automobiles in the US](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9800E3D6173EE033A25755C0A9609C946897D6CF) in 1898). I don’t doubt that some municipalities enacted absurdly low speed limits, but I doubt cities mandated 3-5 mph, and I really doubt most cities had laws requiring someone to walk in front of the car with a red flag. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transition-of-horses-to-autos-in-urban-areas/501968/23 "2009-07-07T00:30:50Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > The transion from horses followed a natural course. At one time most cities had laws requiring someone to walk infront of the car with a red falg worning people that a car was coming. Also the speed limits for cars in cities was 3 to 5 mph. As the car became more usefull and more on the road cities began to change these laws, that allowed more cars on the streets. There was no mandated switch. > [@zut](#): > > I challenge that. It sounds like you’re referring to the [Red Flag Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Act) in the UK, which was relaxed in 1896. That’s before autos had any real presence (there were only [200 automobiles in the US](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9800E3D6173EE033A25755C0A9609C946897D6CF) in 1898). > > I don’t doubt that some municipalities enacted absurdly low speed limits, but I doubt cities mandated 3-5 mph, and I really doubt most cities had laws requiring someone to walk in front of the car with a red flag. By 1905 in the US, most cities had a 10mph speed limit. Connecticut had a 12mph in cities law which encompassed the entire state. I believe **zut** is correct, and the red flag thing was only UK. The US _did_ madate rather early red lights on the rear of an auto. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transition-of-horses-to-autos-in-urban-areas/501968/24 "2009-07-07T03:16:14Z")
> [@zut](#): > > I challenge that. It sounds like you’re referring to the [Red Flag Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Act) in the UK, which was relaxed in 1896. That’s before autos had any real presence (there were only [200 automobiles in the US](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9800E3D6173EE033A25755C0A9609C946897D6CF) in 1898). > > I don’t doubt that some municipalities enacted absurdly low speed limits, but I doubt cities mandated 3-5 mph, and I really doubt most cities had laws requiring someone to walk in front of the car with a red flag. Your are correct not most cities but the larger cities. Remember early cars could cause a horse to spook. The 3-5 mph limit was mentioned in a book I was reading, I am not sure which book, but I think it was the one about Marconi. The logic was 5 mph is a fast walk so it would be safe in the business district. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transition-of-horses-to-autos-in-urban-areas/501968/25 "2009-07-07T03:17:23Z")
Clay McShane is the expert on this transition. I’ve read his [Down the Asphalt Path: the Automobile and the American City](http://www.amazon.com/Down-Asphalt-Path-Professor-McShane/dp/0231083912/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246936016&sr=8-1) and I’d certainly recommend it. (It’s an academic book but aimed more at the general reader.) Despite the title, at least half the book is about pre-automobile transportation in cities. He covers the transition period in detail, reminding us that streetcars, trolleys, jitneys, railroads, and all sorts of other public transport vehicles existed before the auto and competed with it and with horses. And the answer to the OP is: this is America. Nothing is ever regulated. The market chose what vehicles were preferred over horses and when. And the market - meaning people with money - told governments what to do when to help their cause, just as they do today - only a lot more so. They really did own governments then. The red flag law is 99% crap, even in the UK. It had as much validity and power as all those other “weird laws” you read about and regularly get debunked here. Actually, his other book [The Horse in the City: Living Machines in the Nineteenth Century](http://www.amazon.com/Horse-City-Machines-Nineteenth-Century/dp/0801886007/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246936016&sr=8-4) probably has even more on the subject, but it’s not in my library system. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transition-of-horses-to-autos-in-urban-areas/501968/26 "2009-07-07T15:43:59Z")
> [@misling](#): > > On the side roads around Lancaster Pennsylvania, you still see horse drawn carriages every day. The Amish drive them. They go in the outside lanes and pull over to the shoulder every so often to let cars pass. They have orange triangle reflector signs on the back of the carriages. The carriages have rubber tires. They avoid the high speed highways mostly. Some of them are family vehicles and others are delivering various things such as vegetables and baked goods. I live near Smicksburg, PA, another largely Amish area. I often kayak on a lake midway between Smicksburg and my home. There are always Amish buggies at the lake. The buggies pull makeshift trailers with old aluminum rowboats, which are used for fishing. I’ve chatted with a few of the Amish dudes. I asked one if he ever thought about living outside of his community. He smiled, and answered, “everyday”. Sadly, when buggy and auto collide, buggies tend to suffer: [DUI hit and run](http://www.wpxi.com/news/19964678/detail.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transition-of-horses-to-autos-in-urban-areas/501968.md?page=1)