# Transitioning America's economy away from consumerism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331 "2010-11-29T21:50:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/81 "2010-12-03T23:32:19Z")
A non-consumer economy? Isn’t that one of those oxymorons? You know, like green industry, or Congressional ethics. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/82 "2010-12-04T01:56:23Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > A non-consumer economy? Isn’t that one of those oxymorons? You know, like green industry, or Congressional ethics. I admit, shortly after making the post, I realized that the title sounds kind of stupid. My point was about cutting back on over-spending and relying on credit, which the crappy economy is forcing people to do anyway. But at any rate, while you need consumption in an economy, I was just wondering if it was possible to have an economy where consumption wasn’t the main focus. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/83 "2010-12-04T02:03:56Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > I admit, shortly after making the post, I realized that the title sounds kind of stupid. My point was about cutting back on over-spending and relying on credit, which the crappy economy is forcing people to do anyway. > > But at any rate, while you need consumption in an economy, I was just wondering if it was possible to have an economy where consumption wasn’t the main focus. Well, I guess would could build pyramids. What do you imagine people doing in the economic sphere that isn’t related to consumption? Even if I give all my money to the poor, it’s so that they can consume things. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/84 "2010-12-04T02:07:54Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > The United States has to create more than 100,000 new jobs each month, month after month, year after year, just to keep up with legal immigration into this country… > …PLUS, in addition to, bringing back the 9 million jobs lost in the past few years, plus new jobs for the illegals coming into this country. Do all that, and we will just barely be keeping still, be treading water. > Anyways, getting rid of American factories/American manufacturing is NOT the way to lower unemployment. Oh they’ll tell you that we’re not competing against China for manufacturing. They’ll say we’re moving toward a knowledge based economy. (And you know who you are, he who won’t come back near this subject now that I’ve called you on it…) Heheheh. But you already know why that’s bullshit. Heheheheh. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/85 "2010-12-04T02:10:21Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You’ve posted this claim before and it is simply untrue. There was not some single system of tariffs in place since 1776 that was suddenly removed 20 years ago. The most casual research will show you that there has pretty much constantly been a battle between free trade advocates who understand that tariffs only serve to raise prices, reducing the amount of products that comsumers can purchase and ultimately hurt the economy vs self serving and short sighted protectionists. > > So if study after study says that tariffs ultimately reduces economic growth (and job growth), why should we implement them? > [Relevant article for your reading pleasure.](http://economics.about.com/cs/taxpolicy/a/tariffs_2.htm) Wrong. Absolutely wrong. For the ten thousandth time, _tariffs are doing wonders for China_ and their economic growth, which is definitely benefiting their workers. Anyone who doesn’t factor in the rise in wages that go along with the rise in prices as a result of tariffs is _not_ worth citing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/86 "2010-12-04T02:13:14Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Oh they’ll tell you that we’re not competing against China for manufacturing. They’ll say it’s stupid to compete with a low wage country for labor intensive jobs unless you want those low wages yourself. > [@](#): > > They’ll say we’re moving toward a knowledge based economy. (And you know who you are, he who won’t come back near this subject now that I’ve called you on it…) Heheheh. But you already know why that’s bullshit. > > Heheheheh. You’re right. We aren’t moving towards a knowledge based economy. We’re already in a knowledge based economy. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/87 "2010-12-04T02:47:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They’ll say it’s stupid to compete with a low wage country for labor intensive jobs unless you want those low wages yourself. Oh for God’s sake… These labor intensive jobs weren’t low wage jobs until corporations realized they could go find countries with cheaper labor, no pollution laws and no workplace safety controls. Manufacturing jobs are and always will be the primary engine for sustaining a middle class. You will never keep a robust middle class without manufacturing. > [@](#): > > You’re right. We aren’t moving towards a knowledge based economy. > > We’re already in a knowledge based economy. And that economy is already moving overseas. Better get into it now before your employer finds out that they can get the same knowledge workers overseas for less. Oh wait, that’s already happening. In BIOTECH! At the very _least_. But you’ve been told this before, haven’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/88 "2010-12-04T03:05:33Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > To continue from my earlier post - reducing or changing consumerism. > So - as individuals we need to reduce consumption - shopping - just for the sake of shopping. . The United States economy is now 70 % consumption. IF you get rid of consumption, there is not much left. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/89 "2010-12-04T03:06:35Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Oh for God’s sake… > > These labor intensive jobs weren’t low wage jobs until corporations realized they could go find countries with cheaper labor, no pollution laws and no workplace safety controls. There have always been countries with lower wages and less stringent regulations. > [@](#): > > Manufacturing jobs are and always will be the primary engine for sustaining a middle class. You will never keep a robust middle class without manufacturing. Any manufacturing job is subject to replacement by cheap labor overseas or a robot. > [@](#): > > And that economy is already moving overseas. Better get into it now before your employer finds out that they can get the same knowledge workers overseas for less. > > Oh wait, that’s already happening. In BIOTECH! At the very _least_. But you’ve been told this before, haven’t you? It’s a world economy. Every country is striving to advance into a knowledge based economy. Some will be more successful than other, but we’re already there. That doesn’t mean that the best opportunities here won’t be in that type of economy. As countries like China get richer, they won’t have those low wage jobs anymore. When I was a kid, Japan was the land of cheap products. They made the transition to a 1st world economy. Other Asian nations like Korea and Taiwan weren’t far behind. China is on its way, although it’s more accurate to think of China as at least 2 different economies, especially since they maintain strict rules about moving inside the country. It might as well be like the US and Mexico. You can fight for those jobs paying $1 an hour making sneakers. Me, I’ll focus on what the next new technology is going to be. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/90 "2010-12-04T03:45:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, I guess would could build pyramids. > > What do you imagine people doing in the economic sphere that isn’t related to consumption? Even if I give all my money to the poor, it’s so that they can consume things. I’ll repeat what I said in post post 82 > [@Joel](#): > > …My point was about cutting back on over-spending and relying on credit… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/91 "2010-12-04T15:08:53Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > I’ll repeat what I said in post post 82 Don’t blame me if you keep shifting the focus. I was responding to the post, after that post, where you said: “I was just wondering if it was possible to have an economy where consumption wasn’t the main focus.” What do you want the “main focus” to be? Even if we reduced spending, it would still be the “main focus” unless we just built stuff we don’t need (like pyramids). If you want to reduce the use of credit, that’s another thing. But you can’t eliminate consumption from the economy without eliminating the economy. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/92 "2010-12-04T20:49:05Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Historical facts seem to disagree with you. > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Manufacturing jobs are and always will be the primary engine for sustaining a middle class. Why are manufacturing jobs the benchmark by which you measure economic health when we have shifted to an information age economy? ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/93 "2010-12-04T21:08:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There have always been countries with lower wages and less stringent regulations. That doesn’t change the fact that here, manufacturing jobs paid well and are the life blood of the middle class. > [@](#): > > Any manufacturing job is subject to replacement by cheap labor overseas or a robot. If that was the case about robots they would have automated instead of gone overseas. > [@](#): > > It’s a world economy. Every country is striving to advance into a knowledge based economy. Some will be more successful than other, but we’re already there. Fat lot of good that is going us. Have you seen the unemployment numbers as of late? News flash: the knowledge based economy is not a booming sector. Not like manufacturing was. Before it hits its “stride” I can guarantee you that it’ll go overseas. Which leads to the most dreadful question for capitalist free trade apologists: what in the world is coming up next? The truth is we have no more job booms coming that will support our growing population. We had our last one with the tech boom. You know that just as well as I do. America is about to settle into a persistent era of 8% displaced workers like we used to laugh at Europe about… because the knowledge based economy is a poor replacement for the job-producing industries that haven’t been replaced but have in fact left for other countries. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t mean that the best opportunities here won’t be in that type of economy. For biotech researchers the best opportunities are now in India. They’re already fighting for $1/hour knowledge-based jobs. Already. This wave is about to spread throughout the knowledge based job universe. One day, soon, YOUR self-proclaimed knowledge based job will migrate overseas because someone in India can do exactly what you do for pennies on your dollar. > [@](#): > > As countries like China get richer, they won’t have those low wage jobs anymore. When I was a kid, Japan was the land of cheap products. They made the transition to a 1st world economy. Other Asian nations like Korea and Taiwan weren’t far behind. China is on its way, although it’s more accurate to think of China as at least 2 different economies, especially since they maintain strict rules about moving inside the country. It might as well be like the US and Mexico. > > You can fight for those jobs paying $1 an hour making sneakers. Me, I’ll focus on what the next new technology is going to be. Good luck. You’re confused about my point yet again, even though I’ve explained it to you repeatedly: those jobs didn’t pay just $1 in the US. Allow me to foretell your future using my patented **Read The Giant Spray Painted Writing On The Wall[tm] Technology**: ## “You can fight for those knowledge based nanotech research jobs paying $1 an hour. Me, I’ll focus on what the next new technology is going to be. Good luck.” Problem is: knowledge based jobs ARE the last step on the new technology ladder and there won’t be anything coming up afterwards. If anyone wishes to say I am wrong then please, tell us right here what comes after knowledge based jobs: * * * And mark my words, that will happen. In under 15 years. Just in time for _MY THREE DAUGHTERS_ to enter the workforce. Maybe you don’t have kids, though, so you don’t have to worry. Or maybe you do have kids and you’ll just tell them to sink or swim. Capitalists are known for doing that. New technology jobs in America start migrating overseas the minute they come into existence. En masse. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/94 "2010-12-04T21:13:59Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > That doesn’t change the fact that here, manufacturing jobs paid well and are the life blood of the middle class. > If that was the case about robots they would have automated instead of gone overseas. > Fat lot of good that is going us. Have you seen the unemployment numbers as of late? > > News flash: the knowledge based economy is not a booming sector. Not like manufacturing was. Before it hits its “stride” I can guarantee you that it’ll go overseas. > > Which leads to the most dreadful question for capitalist free trade apologists: what in the world is coming up next? The truth is we have no more job booms coming that will support our growing population. We had our last one with the tech boom. You know that just as well as I do. > > America is about to settle into a persistent era of 8% displaced workers like we used to laugh at Europe about… because the knowledge based economy is a poor replacement for the job-producing industries that haven’t been replaced but have in fact left for other countries. > For biotech researchers the best opportunities are now in India. They’re already fighting for $1/hour knowledge-based jobs. Already. This wave is about to spread throughout the knowledge based job universe. > > One day, soon, YOUR self-proclaimed knowledge based job will migrate overseas because someone in India can do exactly what you do for pennies on your dollar. > You’re confused about my point yet again, even though I’ve explained it to you repeatedly: those jobs didn’t pay just $1 in the US. > > Allow me to foretell your future using my patented **Read The Giant Spray Painted Writing On The Wall[tm] Technology**: > > ## “You can fight for those knowledge based nanotech research jobs paying $1 an hour. Me, I’ll focus on what the next new technology is going to be. Good luck.” Problem is: knowledge based jobs ARE the last step on the new technology ladder and there won’t be anything coming up afterwards. If anyone wishes to say I am wrong then please, tell us right here what comes after knowledge based jobs: > > * * * > > And mark my words, that will happen. In under 15 years. Just in time for _MY THREE DAUGHTERS_ to enter the workforce. Maybe you don’t have kids, though, so you don’t have to worry. Or maybe you do have kids and you’ll just tell them to sink or swim. Capitalists are known for doing that. > > New technology jobs in America start migrating overseas the minute they come into existence. En masse. I’ll tell you what. You give me a cite that China requires cars to be manufactured in China, and a cite that “For biotech researchers the best opportunities are now in India”, and I’ll respond to the rest of your post. If you can’t back up your assertions, you’re just pulling shit out of your ass. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/95 "2010-12-04T21:17:42Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Historical facts seem to disagree with you. You mean history disagrees that tariffs are helping China? Have you seen their growth lately? Did you not see how their workers managed to strike and get better wages? > [@](#): > > Why are manufacturing jobs the benchmark by which you measure economic health when we have shifted to an information age economy? Because manufacturing (and tech) produced a lot more jobs (as a percentage of the working class population) than any knowledge based economy ever will. We are entering an age of European-level permanent unemployment, and this so-called knowledge based economy is insufficient to alleviate that. Because it’s _already going overseas_. To use a John Mace quote we will have millions of unemployed Americans fighting with India over $1 an hour knowledge based jobs. A HANDFUL of us will be working high paying knowledge based jobs while the rest of us will be getting our resumes turned away while facing thousands of dollars in college debt acquired in the name of getting a (choose your knowledge industry sector) degree. In short: there will not be enough knowledge industry jobs for the number of qualified workers seeking it. _There are not enough knowledge industry jobs for the number of qualified workers seeking work in that industry_ right now. These jobs are already being sucked out of the country as we speak. My **Read The Giant Spray Painted Writing On The Wall[tm]** computer says this: the maturation of the knowledge based industry will result in the greatest level of bifurcation since at least the 1920s. At least. Bifurcation meaning a very small percentage will get the high paying “new industry” jobs and the rest of America will get the shit jobs. This pattern is developing right now. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/96 "2010-12-04T21:28:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ll tell you what. You give me a cite that China requires cars to be manufactured in China, and a cite that “For biotech researchers the best opportunities are now in India”, and I’ll respond to the rest of your post. If you can’t back up your assertions, you’re just pulling shit out of your ass. You mean the way you pulled shit out of your ass when you said any manufacturing job is subject to be replaced by, among other things, a robot? Or when you said that we’re not competing against other countries for manufacturing jobs? Or, more hilariously, maybe you can show us where this “free trade” thing exists that you keep insisting is so beneficial to the world. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/97 "2010-12-04T21:35:36Z")
IOW, you ain’t go shit. Buh-bye. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/98 "2010-12-04T21:41:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Don’t blame me if you keep shifting the focus. I was responding to the post, after that post, where you said: “I was just wondering if it was possible to have an economy where consumption wasn’t the main focus.” I’m not shifting focus. Being a layman maybe I’m just not using the right words, or words in way that professionals like you use them. What I’m asking about is could we have an economy where exports and foreign consumption are more important to the economy than imports and US consumption. I am asking if it’s possible and feasible for us to cut down on _ **our** _ consumption and increase exports, which would mean that other countries would increase their own consumption of course. Or is that a terrible idea and we should just stick to the way things are? Right now our imports total 198.1 billion dollars and exports total 154.1 billion dollars [Site](http://www.census.gov/indicator/www/ustrade.html). What would happen if we consumed less and our import and export totals were equally 176.1 billion dollars? What would happen if we consumed less and our imports totaled 154.1 billion dollars and our exports equaled 198.1 billion dollars? ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/99 "2010-12-04T22:00:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > IOW, you ain’t go shit. Buh-bye. Neither do you by your own standards. Go sell your “we aren’t competing for manufacturing jobs” and “automation is coming” shit elsewhere. You’re done pitching that BS here. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331/100 "2010-12-04T22:01:45Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > I’m not shifting focus. Being a layman maybe I’m just not using the right words, or words in way that professionals like you use them. What I’m asking about is could we have an economy where exports and foreign consumption are more important to the economy than imports and US consumption. > > I am asking if it’s possible and feasible for us to cut down on _ **our** _ consumption and increase exports, which would mean that other countries would increase their own consumption of course. Or is that a terrible idea and we should just stick to the way things are? > > Right now our imports total 198.1 billion dollars and exports total 154.1 billion dollars [Site](http://www.census.gov/indicator/www/ustrade.html). > > What would happen if we consumed less and our import and export totals were equally 176.1 billion dollars? > > What would happen if we consumed less and our imports totaled 154.1 billion dollars and our exports equaled 198.1 billion dollars? You mean, consume less Made-in-China stuff and buy more American goods? America needs willpower in order to do that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transitioning-americas-economy-away-from-consumerism/562331.md?page=6)