# Translation of a welsh song **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 10, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017 "2008-07-10T18:50:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/21 "2008-07-11T16:15:49Z")
Ok, I figured out (I think) for the previous one. It should be Breton. Sorry for the multiple post, but now (still on Youtube) I’ve another language issue. [Here’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzmTcNZ1_Y4) a version of An Alarc’h (the song I posted part of the lyrics of above). Now, looking in the “related videos”, I find [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_1MP-7pX40) . The music is the same but the language isn’t. Googling the name of the band, I find out they’re a folk band from Norway. They’ve authored a song titled “yes to independance” (Independance of whom? From what??). They would also sing in Gallego (which, if I’m not mistaken is one of the spanish regional dialects). So, here, they’re apparently singing some version of a Breton nationalist song. But in which language are they singing? In Norwegian? Gallego? A celtic language? Something else? Can somebody tell? And if somebody knows the language, what is the song about? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/22 "2008-07-11T19:20:59Z")
Galicia is the most Celtic part of Spain. Gallego, I believe but could be mistaken, is not a dialect of Spanish as much as a separate language, more related to Portugese. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/23 "2008-07-11T19:26:08Z")
[QUOTE=clairobscur] The music is the same but the language isn’t. Googling the name of the band, I find out they’re a folk band from Norway. They’ve authored a song titled “yes to independance” (Independance of whom? From what??). They would also sing in Gallego (which, if I’m not mistaken is one of the spanish regional dialects). [/QUOTE] From your link, the video poster says: "Seeing as the text is a danish translation of a scottish ballad which name is mentioned in the box on the right (“The twa corbies”), I advise you to seek out the text of that. " ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/24 "2008-07-11T19:47:41Z")
That’s sort of a mis-statement. It is the same **tune** as “Twa Corbies,” but at root it is a traditional Breton song. However, Tri Yann like to adjust the lyrics a bit to put a nationalist spin on things. I don’t have a dictionary on me right now, so this is tentative: _Un alarc’h, un alarc’h tra mor War lein tour moal kastell Arvor_ A swan, a swan [from] across the sea (‘a transmarine swan,’ if you like) On [lein] the bald tower of the Castle of Armorica / Brittany _Neventi vad d’ar Vretoned Ha mallozh ruz d’ar C’hallaoued_ Good news for the Bretons And a red [i.e. bad] curse on the French _Erru ul lestr e pleg ar mor E ouelioù gwenn gantañ digor_ The vessel [i.e. ship] has arrived in a fold of the sea [i.e. a wave] Its white sails open before it _Degoue’et an Aotrou Yann en-dro Digoue’et eo da ziwall e vro_ Lord John has come[?] back [not sure about this verb] He has returned to save his country \*D’hon diwall diouzh ar C’hallaoued A vac’hom war ar Vretoned \* To save us from the French And [I think ‘vac’hom’ is a typo] on the Bretons ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/25 "2008-07-11T20:08:34Z")
[QUOTE=An Gadaí] Airnéal is essentially another, less common word for céilí. I think there might be a difference in that airnéal refers to other activities, not just dancing but singing, storytelling and the like. The word ceilí is used in English and is universally known at least in this part of the world so translating it as ceilí makes sense. [/QUOTE] Here’s a reply to the query I sent to relatives in Donegal: > [@](#): > > They still use the word airneal here quite a lot in the context of women getting together and having a good chat, tea and a gossip! They used it frequently when the women used to hand knit aran sweaters for pin money. They used to gather together at night and knit etc. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/26 "2008-07-11T20:13:10Z")
From the contexts I’ve seen it in it does seem to be specifically a Donegal Irish term. That’s interesting though. I hadn’t come across the word until I saw this thread. I’m by no means fluent in Irish though, _is mór an trua_. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/27 "2008-07-11T20:15:08Z")
[QUOTE=An Gadaí] From your link, the video poster says: "Seeing as the text is a danish translation of a scottish ballad which name is mentioned in the box on the right (“The twa corbies”), I advise you to seek out the text of that. " [/QUOTE] Sorry, I didn’t pay attention to the comments. However, it doesn’t make things much clearer, according to \*\* Dr Drake \*\* post As for Gallego : I intended to write “language”, indeed, not dialect. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/28 "2008-07-11T20:18:44Z")
[QUOTE=An Gadaí] From the contexts I’ve seen it in it does seem to be specifically a Donegal Irish term. [/QUOTE] Yes, and I suppose I should have pointed out that the ‘here’ my aunt refers to is Gweedore, also the home of Altan. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/29 "2008-07-11T20:23:09Z")
My cousins live in Gaoth Dobhair/Gweedore. I must visit them! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/30 "2008-07-11T20:43:11Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Drake] That’s sort of a mis-statement. It is the same **tune** as “Twa Corbies,” but at root it is a traditional Breton song. However, Tri Yann like to adjust the lyrics a bit to put a nationalist spin on things. I don’t have a dictionary on me right now, so this is tentative: [/quote] Thanks. It’s very clear, now. It’s a Norwegian band singing a Danish translation of a traditional Breton song on a Scottish tune. Obvious. :smack: No, seriously. I’m going to assume that Servat ( IIRC the video, Tri Yann are on stage too, along with Alan Stivell, but the singer is Gilles Servat, who anyway is significantly more nationalist than Tri Yann. His most well-known song, “la blanche hermine” is essentially a battle hymn) and the Norwegian band independently picked up the tune of a Scottish ballad. I’m going to further suppose that the poster on Youtube was mistaken, and that the Norwegians are singing in Norwegian. I’m still wondering why a traditional Breton song would be sung using a Scottish tune (I looked at the lyrics of “twa corbies” and it has nothing to do with your translation). Are you sure that it’s a traditional Breton song rather than something Servat wrote, or is it just a guess? Because, for instance “la blanche hermine” that I mentioned above looks like a traditional song (old fashioned words, set seemingly in the past, etc..) but AFAIK he wrote it. So I could picture him picking up a Scottish tune and writing a traditional-looking nationalist song. > [@](#): > > Good news for the Bretons > And a red [i.e. bad] curse on the French Out of curiosity : is the colour red usually associated with evil/bad in Celtic culture? I’m also wondering who this Sir John could be. But anyway thanks a lot for the translation. And finally the most important question : how comes that someone living in San Diego understand the Breton language and is familiar with Tri Yann??? I’m baffled. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/31 "2008-07-11T20:57:27Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Here’s a reply to the query I sent to relatives in Donegal: > [@](#): > > They still use the word airneal here quite a lot in the context of women getting together and having a good chat, tea and a gossip! They used it frequently when the women used to hand knit aran sweaters for pin money. They used to gather together at night and knit etc. [/QUOTE] And now I have to ask: What is “pin” money? Galician (Gallego) is considered an official language in Spain-- along with Castilian, Catalan, and Basque. (And let’s hope this thread doesn’t devolve into another nightmare thread about Basque… 🙂 ) It’s more similar to Portugese than to Castilian, and if you look at a map of the Iberian peninsula, it will come as no surprise as to why that is. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/32 "2008-07-11T21:15:49Z")
[QUOTE=clairobscur] I’m still wondering why a traditional Breton song would be sung using a Scottish tune (I looked at the lyrics of “twa corbies” and it has nothing to do with your translation). Are you sure that it’s a traditional Breton song rather than something Servat wrote, or is it just a guess? [/QUOTE] No, I have it in a couple of Breton songbooks… I’ll try to post the traditional lyrics when I get home. Tunes travel well internationally, and a lot of tunes have more than one set of lyrics. Sometimes lyrics even have more than one set of tunes. [QUOTE=clairobscur] And finally the most important question : how comes that someone living in San Diego understand the Breton language and is familiar with Tri Yann??? I’m baffled. [/QUOTE] Well, I studied Breton in college (UC Berkeley) and then I went on to become a Folklorist & Celticist. And Tri Yann rocks. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/33 "2008-07-11T21:17:31Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] And now I have to ask: What is “pin” money? [/QUOTE] [Pin Money](http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/21/messages/495.html) is money a wife used for frivolous, personal items. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/34 "2008-07-11T22:02:52Z")
And more generally, it is any modest amount of incidental money that one might earn from some activity. You don’t have to be a wife, or even a woman, to earn pin money. For example, an old geezer might deliver newspapers, not so much for the money but for the opportunity to get out and about. Any income from that might be described as pin money, unless the old geezer was very hard up. ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/35 "2008-07-12T02:36:55Z")
[QUOTE=clairobscur] I’m also wondering who this Sir John could be. [/QUOTE] That’s a reference to [John IV, Duke of Brittany](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_IV_de_Montfort) ( **Yann Moñforzh** in Breton, **Jean de Montfort** in French), who was a major player in the [Breton War of Succession](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_War_of_Succession) (1341-1364), in which the English-backed de Montfort family tried to regain control of the Duchy of Brittany back from the French-backed House of Blois. From [here](http://mcristobylacew-abdul666.blogspot.com/2007/08/armed-forces-of-monte-cristo.html) (an “alternate-history” site, but containing full lyrics and translation of **An alarc’h** ): > [@](#): > > ‘Our Lord Duke John’ (‘an aotrou Yann’) refers to Jean IV de Montfort coming back triumphally from exile in 1379 to fight the French occupation of Brittany. His banner bore a swan, hence the two first lines. ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/36 "2008-07-12T06:14:43Z")
[QUOTE=clairobscur] Thanks. It’s very clear, now. It’s a Norwegian band singing a Danish translation of a traditional Breton song on a Scottish tune. Obvious. :smack: … I’m going to further suppose that the poster on Youtube was mistaken, and that the Norwegians are singing in Norwegian. … Are you sure that it’s a traditional Breton song rather than something Servat wrote, or is it just a guess? [/QUOTE] Unless I’m being whooshed , there seems to still be some confusion about the fact that we’re talking about _two completely different songs_, that happen (in the links provided in this thread) to be sung to the same tune (as **Dr. Drake** points out, tune-sharing is common between different songs, and the connection between Bretons and the Celtic people of the British Isles has provided cultural cross-pollination for many centuries): [ul] [li][An Alarc’h](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzmTcNZ1_Y4) (“The Swan”), which – according to every source that I’ve come across – is a [traditional Breton song](http://breizhpartitions.free.fr/en/download_score.php/20_An_Alarc%E2%80%99h) about Yann Moñforzh sailing back to “liberate” Brittany. [/li][\*][Ravnene](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_1MP-7pX40) (“Ravens”), a song that started out as [The Twa Corbies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twa_Corbies#The_Twa_Corbies) ([“The Two Crows” or “The Two Ravens”](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Corbie)) in [Lallans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lallans), the Scots dialect of English (note: _not_ Scots Gaelic). This was translated into Danish by 19th-Century folklorist [Svend Grundtvig](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svend_Grundtvig), and at some point thereafter a Norwegian version was written (Danish and Norwegian are close enough that such translation is a trivial process, and can in fact be done in real-time). 1970’s Norwegian folk-rock band [Folque](http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=140541411) then performed the song on their self-titled LP, and that’s the song performed in the YouTube link at the beginning of this paragraph. So **yes** it’s Norwegian, and **no** it didn’t pass via Breton.[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/37 "2008-07-12T15:13:18Z")
And on the traditionality of the Breton song… the source is Théodore Hersart de la Villemarqué’s _Barzaz Breiz_, a collection of traditional Breton folksongs from 1845 (well, there were many editions, but that’s the important one). _Barzaz Breiz_ means “Poetry of Brittany,” though it wouldn’t have escaped his notice that _barz_ is etymologically the same word as _bard_. The authenticity of Villemarqué’s collection has been in doubt since publication. Some of it has been vindicated, some has been found to be fraudulent (by modern standards of collection), and some not discussed. I’m not sure where “An Alarc’h” falls on this scale. Villemarqué often improved collected material with his own additions, especially if by doing so he could make them seem more like other Celtic literature or somehow more special, unique, or, well, Celtic. His motives seem to have been good, but unfortunately the mess he left has been difficult to clean up. There are a lot more verses to “An Alarc’h,” including some that seem more about the futility of war: \*darev ar foen, piv a falc’ho? \* (The hay is ripe, who will scythe it?) And \*vac’hom \*is indeed correct above. I think the line means “…and the [French] oppression on the Bretons.” It also comes with a chorus: _din, din, don, d’an emgann, d’an emgann, O din, din, don, d’an emgann ez an_ ding, ding, dong, to the battle, to the battle, O ding, ding, dong, to the battle I go ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017/38 "2008-07-13T22:02:53Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Drake] There are a lot more verses to “An Alarc’h,” including some that seem more about the futility of war: \*darev ar foen, piv a falc’ho? \* (The hay is ripe, who will scythe it?) And \*vac’hom \*is indeed correct above. I think the line means “…and the [French] oppression on the Bretons.” [/QUOTE] If anyone else is interested, the full song (thirty couplets) is [here](http://mcristobylacew-abdul666.blogspot.com/2007/08/armed-forces-of-monte-cristo.html?showComment=1209752700000#c7425073912093925712), in the original Breton and with an English translation; the latter is a little idiosyncratic (“Brittons” and “Frenchs”), but perfectly readable. FWIW, the author of that post (who appears to be French) translates _vac’hom_ as _encroach_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/translation-of-a-welsh-song/456017.md?page=1)