# Transsexual Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565 "2003-03-27T18:14:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![blahedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a4c791/32.png) [@blahedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blahedo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/241 "2003-04-02T15:13:47Z")
Seriously, folks, lay off the ad-hominems. They are really not accomplishing anything. > [@](#): > > \*Quoth **catsix** : \* > > > [@](#): > > > > **blahedo** said: > > The John Thiessen case seems like it should be read primarily as "there’s no denying true psychological gender— > > More like ‘no denying physiological gender’, since it was Thiessen’s genes and the body that he was _born with_ that made him a boy and not a girl, no matter how hard surgeons and psychiatrists tried to change that. This is interesting; I didn’t foresee this counterargument. It is a valid deduction IF you proceed from the axiom that “true psychological gender” and “birth-genitalia gender” (aka “sex”) always are the same. Is that a fair characterisation of your view, **catsix**? ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/242 "2003-04-02T15:13:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\* > > It is _also_ possible that the administration of hormones to pregnant women in recent decades has caused an increase in transgendered babies. \*\* Ok, that is what I was looking for. Maybe even the hormones put into our food supply(like the beef that we eat) that our pregnant women eat. I will shut up now. I didnt mean to get off topic or on a tangent. I was looking for a cause. I apoligize again if what I brought up did not add to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/243 "2003-04-02T15:24:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > **If I undergo surgery to make me look EXACTLY like an orangutan, even if it’s so convincing that only a zoologist would be able to tell the difference and even if I really, truly believe that I AM AN ORANGUTAN, that doesn’t change the fact that I am a human. No amount of surgery, no amount of wishing will make me into an orangutan.** And if we replaced every cell of your body with an orangutan cell, one at a time, until no human cells were left and only oragutan cells remained, would you still be a human then? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/244 "2003-04-02T15:35:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\* > I couldn’t agree more with you on this. But “not sterile”, “Not really blonde”, “boobs aren’t really this big”, “not really Muslim”, and similar false presentations a person might make are not the same caliber as “Not really female”. \*\* It is not the same caliber _to you_. You think it’s a bigger deal because you personally would care more that a potential romantic partner were not born a woman than you would that she was not born a blonde. But you know what? That’s your hang up. You’re entitled to it, just as others are entitled to consider breast implants or sterility a deal-breaker, but don’t pretend like it’s universal. Some people obviously don’t share your problem with transsexuals. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/245 "2003-04-02T15:40:11Z")
**Susanann** , I hasten to add that the hormone-administration theory is only a wild guess on my part. I feel that it’s mostly because surgery was available in the early 1920s, people just had to grin and bear it. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/246 "2003-04-02T15:43:21Z")
I mean, “before” surgery was available in the early 1920s . . . ---
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/247 "2003-04-02T15:47:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > BTW, **Lazz** , I find it very interesting that you said you can’t cry from sadness anymore. If only because we always say that it’s social conditioning that stops men from crying. But perhaps it’s not? (Not that it matters if SOME men cry, of course!) I know that for me it came to a shock, I was someone who was pegged during most of my life as “very sensitive”, I would cry in front of criticism, I cried when I learned I would have to wear glasses, cried again when I learned I had to wear braces, often cried during movies (Know the animated movie, Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron? I cried non-stop from the beginning to the end), or if I saw on tv subjects on disabled children or people killed in a shooting spree, or while reading books (Like when Mowgli go back to the humans in his final story). I thought crying less would be a good thing that T would brings, though not all ftms on T can’t cry, others report being able to cry again after some time. And three weeks after starting T, in a situation where I would have normally burst in tears (The crash of Columbia), nothing came. I wanted to but I simply couldn’t, and it’s not a pleasant sensation when you are so used to crying all your life, I usually describe it by saying I feel like my tearducts are physically blocked. A new thing is that now before sleeping, if my eyes are “tired”, tears will come off really easily. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/248 "2003-04-02T15:50:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > **I could understand it better if I knew why it was increasing, as I believe it is.** I have to agree with **Eve** on this one. Lots of things appear to be increasing not because they actually are but because people are merely more aware of them. Europeans prior to around the turn of the century would have treated any male who insisted that he was really a woman as **insane** and locked him away in an asylum. Our language and our culture had no terms, no concepts for transsexuals, and so there is no record of them existing. But many things have existed without having a record for them. So it is incorrect for you to conclude from the absence of a historical record that transsexualism is increasing in Western society. The record is, quite simply, totally lacking and no conclusion can be drawn at all. **Eve** ’s hypothesis about hormone supplements is not without merit. I would also suggest that increasing use of pesticides may also play a role, as several of those have been shown to have effects on sexual dimorphism as well. **JerseyDiamond** , has your friend in Wichita discussed pronouns to you? When you refer to this person as “he” is this the pronoun corresponding to birth-assigned gender or current presenting gender? Why? If you changed pronouns, how difficult was it for you to reconceptualize your view of this person? Also, can either you or **Joe\_Cool** at least acknowledge that, by and large, transsexuals do not consider their behavior to be “deceptive”? Can you show that you understand that I do not consider it a lie to present myself as a woman because I truly believe in my heart that I am a woman? You both persistently call transsexuals “liars” and label our conduct as “deceptive”. The use of these terms, which have a strong undertone of moral culpability, makes your message sound as one of accusation and makes it very hard to accept that you have any empathy or even concern for the people you so label. On the “two categories” issue: I have known a number of people who have claimed to be “bi-gendered” or “ungendered”. All of the ones I’ve kept in contact with for an extended time have eventually recanted that position and admitted being either “male” or “female”. In my opinion, if there is an “in between” space at all, it is quite small. Also, a small point: **JerseyDiamond** , when did you acquire a wife? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/249 "2003-04-02T15:53:01Z")
Um, actually that was **Joe** , who accidentally posted under **Jersey** ’s name. It happens to Dopers who share a computer-one forgets to log out of their account, and the other doesn’t remember, either. ---
**Author:** ![ouisey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9fc29f/32.png) [@ouisey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouisey)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/250 "2003-04-02T15:56:09Z")
Hoo-boy! I read about the first ten posts to my OP, and then went away for a few days. I come back and look what’s happened? Thanks to everyone for responding. Eyes are definitely wide-open and I’m on the way to a greater understanding of the situation. I have another question… **Joe\_Cool** , I don’t understand the whole loathing of dating a transsexual. So you go on a few dates, she tells you she once had man-bits. Or, even if we put it how you seem to see it, she’s really a man who likes to pretend she’s a woman. Where’s the huge harm? Where’s the irrevocable damage? You say, I’m sorry, I’m not interested in that, she says OK, you get on with your life. I’ve been on the receiving end of attention from men who find out I have a child and then express no further interest. I’m not particulary worried that I’m deceiving anyone on the nature of my status. I don’t think they’re going home full of hatred towards me because I don’t wear a sign that says “I’m a singlemom, thx”. ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/251 "2003-04-02T16:01:16Z")
Susanann [quote] I could understand it better if I knew why it was increasing, as I believe it is. [quote] This sounds much like a “let’s get to the root of the problem” question, so here are some WAGs. 1. The human species instinctively fears overpopulation and so many opt to be non-breeders, both homosexual and transsexual. 2. The media so celebrates the idea of a “make-over” that certain people lust for the ultimate make-over. 3. Our unseen alien overlords are using mind control to create a race of attractive (to their alien culture) sex slaves. 4. Major broadcasting organizations are putting something in the food of schoolchildren so that they will seek reassignment surgery or beat their live-in girlfriends thus ensuring a steady supply of freaks for daytime TV 5. The American habit of both sexes wearing blue jeans almost all the time has got us all mixed up. 6. Dismayed by their failure to cure cancer and AIDS, the members of the AMA are pushing people into an elaborate surgery and process in order to write up success stories in medical journals. I bet it wouldn’t be hard to find long, detailed, arguments for all these positions. God knows you can find anything on the internet. How about this for an answer: it may or may not be increasing, but it is what some people want and that’s their own business. You know, there’s been a major increase in literacy among Indian women in the past few decades. Does this mean the desire to read is suddenly increasing? ---
**Author:** ![Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glory)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/252 "2003-04-02T16:05:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Then how come a Souix or Cheyenne male could accurately describe his feelings that he was a female in side, and that he thought himself to be a woman, and that he chose to live as a woman, and the white trappers and settlers who observed this transexualism among indian men were completely informed of transexualism among the indians and DID understand it!!!?? Probably because transgendered indians were allowed to live in their society peacefully and the response to a European attempting the same thing could possibly have been death? I really don’t understand why you’re having such a hard time with this. There appeared to be more transgendered Indians because there was no fear or shame for them. They were accepted members of their community, sometimes given important religious tasks. Transgendered Europeans/Americans at that time would have faced potentially horrible consequences for acting the way they felt inside. I don’t think there are magically more transgendered individuals in the world today, there are just more that can act freely and honestly without as much fear of death/shame/ostracisim on discovery. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/253 "2003-04-02T16:20:37Z")
Uh oh . . . Does **Jersey** know that **Joe** posted _deceptively posing as a woman?_ And, apparently, a _lesbian?_ This marriage is off, for sure . . . ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/254 "2003-04-02T16:54:23Z")
I’m actually a brunette, but I look like a blonde becasue i dye my hair. AND I don’t tell anyone this secret either. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/255 "2003-04-02T17:08:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Um, actually that was **Joe** , who accidentally posted under **Jersey** ’s name. It happens to Dopers who share a computer-one forgets to log out of their account, and the other doesn’t remember, either. \*\* I dunno. I think we should treat **Joe\_Cool** as a vicious liar for pretending to be **JerseyDiamond**. Yeah, he probably didn’t intend to do that, but **Joe** ’s made it quite clear that intent is not relevant when you’re deceiving someone as to your identity like that. Heinous deceivers! Ban them! Ban them now! ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/256 "2003-04-02T17:10:56Z")
Thank for realizing that Guinastasia. 😉 > [@](#): > > Uh oh . . . Does Jersey know that Joe posted deceptively posing as a woman? And, apparently, a lesbian? This marriage is off, for sure . . . No sir, joe is definitely all man, just the way he was made, and happy about it. XY chromosomes and fully functioning male genitals, and he loves _woman_, more specifically, me. 😃 (It’s a wonderful thing) - thought you were just gonna answer honest questions. \* :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/257 "2003-04-02T17:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\*Thank for realizing that Guinastasia. 😉 > > No sir, joe is definitely all man, just the way he was made, \*\* I think, Jersey, that what KellyM and all are trying to say is (and correct me if I’m wrong,ladies), is that they think THEY were “made” as women, just that the body came out of the factory wrong. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/258 "2003-04-02T17:14:50Z")
**JerseyDiamond** , you actually went to the trouble to have **Joe** ’s chromosomes tested? How do you _know_ that he’s XY? ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/259 "2003-04-02T17:16:34Z")
Well, apparently chromosomes are the only thing keeping **Joe** and **Jersey** together—since she’s had his run through the Chromosome-ometer and they check out, they can get married. Should _one little extra “x”_ sneak in there. though, it’ll all end in tears and lawsuits . . . ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/260 "2003-04-02T18:12:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*If indian men could violate the social structure back then, then why didnt indian women? \*\* I know you want the hijack to stop; I just think you’ve raised some interesting question from historical and psychological points of view. You should start a thread Another transexual in history: Dr. James Barry, died in 1865, probably born around 1795. Had a distinguished career as a British Army doctor. A charwoman hired to wash his corpse in preparation for burial discovered that he was, in fact, a woman. The charwoman declared that Barry had given birth to a child, but I don’t think that can be conclusively determined without an internal examination. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565.md?page=14)