# Transsexual Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565 "2003-03-27T18:14:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/261 "2003-04-02T18:17:02Z")
**Sugaree** , it only takes a quick pelvic exam to tell if a woman has given vaginal birth. The change in the cervix is marked and irreversible. And C-sections were not particularly common in the 18th century, and almost always fatal for the mother. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/262 "2003-04-02T18:20:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > I think, Jersey, that what KellyM and all are trying to say is (and correct me if I’m wrong,ladies), is that they think THEY were “made” as women, just that the body came out of the factory wrong. The thing is, vanilla, I don’t dispute that they think they are woman, I just disagree that they are actually woman. The tought of joe possibly being a woman has never crossed my mind. Like I said, everything about him indicates he is a man; he was born a baby boy, with a penis that does the job it is suppose to do, and testicles that produce sperm. Nothing has been attached or removed, and no hormones have to be taken in order for him to look more like a man. I did work at a major lab for awhile, and just for the heck of it, we use to do random tests that we were curious about: seretonin, cmp, dna ds/ss, hiv, cpk, you name it, we probably ran it. It was fun to be able to see the results. This of, course, didn’t take place for a while after we started dating, becuause I started working there after the fact. So, to answer your question, kellyM, yes. I don’t know about anyone else here, but when you start dating someone, and you’re on the phone for long periods of time, just to hear their voice, you start to talk about any old thing. We would talk about everything: moon, stars, spaceships, bugs, sex, computers, favorite colors, childhood, etc. When we had our first telephone conversation, that is how we found out that we were both Christians. This is also how you can figure out if there is _something different_ about a potential SO. What keeps us together, Eve, is (#1 God, trust, honesty, and love.) What brought us together was/is attraction (and my cousin) If he or I was not truthful from the beginning, we would not be together. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/263 "2003-04-02T18:29:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\ ***Sugaree** , it only takes a quick pelvic exam to tell if a woman has given vaginal birth. The change in the cervix is marked and irreversible. \*\* Did your average corpse-washing charwoman in 1865 know this change in the cervix? I just don’t think her word is proof. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/264 "2003-04-02T18:35:20Z")
**sugaree** , it wouldn’t surprise me that much, as she might very well have also been a midwife, and a midwife **would** know about that. **JerseyDiamond** , it rather bothers me that you would violate random people’s medical privacy by running unordered tests. Also, please note that the serum antibody test only detects if a Y chromosome is present; he could still be XYY (or one of the other rare polyploid conditions). ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/265 "2003-04-02T18:36:24Z")
Actually, let me clarify the story. Barry did not die giving birth; indeed, he would have been postmenopausal (that’s a surreal sentence, isn’t it?) The charwoman was hired to bathe his corpse. She was very surprised when she undressed him and saw a female body. She declared something along the lines of “That’s a woman…furthermore, it’s a woman who has had a baby!” I included this point because it mirrors the evidence about the stagecoach driver, who was also said to have given birth. But I don’t know if we can consider the charwoman infallible here. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/266 "2003-04-02T18:42:22Z")
Dr. Barry’s having given birth does not preclude him from having been a FtM transsexual. My grandmother was a lesbian, and she had _two_ kids! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/267 "2003-04-02T19:10:49Z")
Is it just me, or does Eve really have the most colorful family history of the SDMB? 😉 JerseyDiamond, the issue you aren’t getting (or aren’t willing to get) is that there is more than one thing that determines a person’s gender. I’d venture to guess that most transsexuals would appear (to the rest of the world) to be the sex they identify with (i.e., in e-mail correspondence or something that didn’t include physical I.D.) Almost no one knew Eve was TG until someone outted her somewhere else on the Internet. After some hushed whispers circulated, she came out to the dopers (and everyone was clueless). The point is, you identify a person as one gender or the other through many signals…not just physical. The physical “birth defect”, if you will, can be corrected, just as you would a hermaphrodite. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/268 "2003-04-02T19:30:19Z")
Hell, it wasn’t easy to become the black sheep of _my_ family—it took _work_. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/269 "2003-04-02T20:03:17Z")
**Eve** , I do have to say, I loved the way you broke it to us. What was it you said, > [@](#): > > I AM a lady. But I was raised to be a gentleman Say what you will, she has CLASS. ---
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/270 "2003-04-02T20:04:39Z")
There’s a documentary about ftms with kids being created, called TransParent: [http://members.macconnect.com/users/s/salomona/ftm/projects.html](http://members.macconnect.com/users/s/salomona/ftm/projects.html) Clicking the links on the right brings you to interview excerpts from various ftms. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/271 "2003-04-02T20:10:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \ ***JerseyDiamond** , it rather bothers me that you would violate random people’s medical privacy by running unordered tests. Also, please note that the serum antibody test only detects if a Y chromosome is present; he could still be XYY (or one of the other rare polyploid conditions). I should have been more specific, the tests were on myself and joe\_cool, not random people. Also, the Chromosome Analysis test does show the extra Chromosome, if there is one. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/272 "2003-04-02T20:14:51Z")
**JerseyDiamond** , **Joe\_Cool** , do you believe that an AIS female (XY chromosomes, female development and external genitalia, vestigal internal reproductive organs) is obliged to tell a prospective partner of her condition on (or before) the first date? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/273 "2003-04-02T20:26:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*Hell, it wasn’t easy to become the black sheep of _my_ family—it took _work_. \*\* That’s funny! ---
**Author:** ![easy\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/eb8c5e/32.png) [@easy\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/easy_e)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/274 "2003-04-02T20:57:19Z")
John Money (he was the one that proposed that Thiessen be raised as a girl) has proposed an idea that there are several different types of gender. I don’t have my book, so I’m a bit shaky on the exact definitions: -chromosomal (whether one is XX or XY) -gonadal (ovaries or testes) -prenatal hormonal (I believe whether one produces anti-Mullerian hormone, which is a step in the normal male fetal development, but maybe it’s whether the fetus is producing testosterone) -internal genital (I think this is vagina/fallopian tubes in a woman, and prostate, seminal vesicles, etc. in the male) -external genital (vulva/clitoris in female, penis/scrotum in male) -pubertal hormonal (at puberty, whether producing estrogen/progesterone or testosterone) -assigned sex (“it’s a boy” or “it’s a girl”) -gender identity (whether they think of themselves as male or female) For most people, these all are in alignment. But things aren’t always so clear. For some intersex individuals, there are some conflicts or ambiguousness. For transgenders, the gender identity is different. Note, it’s the gender identity that’s thought to be a result of hormonal changes in the hypothalamus during fetal development. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/275 "2003-04-02T20:57:41Z")
**Susanann** I’d like to point out that Calamity Jane and her ilk were seen as outcasts and low class filth by many. Wearing pants and doing manly things was certainly not something any _lady_ would do. **Joe Cool** Much as I hate hypotheticals, I see this as a situation which does happen- Tod and Tina are both 11 and struggling with new feelings. They have been friends for many years. But, now, both want something more. Finally, they talk about their feelings and begin “going steady”. Soon, they share their first kiss. They go bowling, to the malt shop and other wholsome activities. But, Tina is worried. She has a long talk with the doctor. It turns out that Tina is an Androgen Insensitive with XY chromosomes. Even though she still thinks of herself as a girl, was she wrong all along? ``` Even though she still has the same unaltered-by-surgery-body she always did, does Tina have to tell Tod? Does this mean that Tina and Tod's relationship was actually a homosexual relationship between two men, even though Tina only found out that she wasn't an XX natal woman today? ``` ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/276 "2003-04-02T21:02:44Z")
Jersey and Joe, do you think of Eve and Kelly as men or women? ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/277 "2003-04-02T21:11:27Z")
An AIS situation is different than a young man deciding he wants to get his genitals cut off so he could be a girl. You cannot compare the two. How can I answer the question when I think that the two abnormalities are different. I think that the AIS person was born with an abnormality, out of there control, and I think that a transgendered persons abnormality is psychological. I think it is a struggle with reality for them. I am sorry. The doctor that did the circumcision on the baby boy and mutilated his penis, is a monster. I can understand that accidents happen, but is was totally wrong for the doctor to tell the parents to raise the baby as a girl. It is totally understandable that the young boy wanted to be a boy again. There should have never been an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/278 "2003-04-02T21:13:18Z")
I think they have already made clear that they think of us as “icky,” mentally disturbed men who “take playing dress-up too far.” I don’t need to hear that _again_. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/279 "2003-04-02T21:30:54Z")
**JerseyDiamond** , what evidence, if any, would convince you that you are incorrect, that gender identity really is encoded into brain structure prior to birth and cannot be altered, and that transsexuals really aren’t “men who want to get their genitals cut off”? How does an AIS female differ from a post-op transsexual? AIS individuals have XY chromosomes, after all. Do you think that **Joe\_Cool** would throw you away if you mutually found out today that you had AIS? ---
**Author:** ![ouisey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9fc29f/32.png) [@ouisey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouisey)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/280 "2003-04-02T21:33:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sugaree \* > \*\*The charwoman declared that Barry had given birth to a child, but I don’t think that can be conclusively determined without an internal examination. \*\* Lemme tell you, it can be determined externally too:) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565.md?page=15)