# Transsexual Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565 "2003-03-27T18:14:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/21 "2003-03-29T00:19:11Z")
**Pashnish Ewing** : for the same reason that so many natal women have done the same thing. **istara** ’s point is also valid: many male-to-female transsexuals deliberately dress “to the nines” in order to “leave no doubt” of their “femaleness”. A third reason is that they believe (rightly or wrongly) that their doctors expect it. While the trend is changing, there was a time that the psychiatrists who control access to reassignment surgery would not give The Letter to a candidate who didn’t meet The Stereotype pretty closely. Wearing pants and little or no makeup would get you denied The Letter (as would being a lesbian), and thus denied access to surgery. Doctors are becoming more understanding, but there are still old-timers out there who are perpetuating a 1950s view of the Perfect Woman and expecting surgical candidates to meet it. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/22 "2003-03-29T01:09:32Z")
Actually, I know several other MtF transsexuals who aren’t all girly-girl. One is a jeans-and-t-shirt type; another is a scientist who wears lab coats; another is a tweed-suits type. Me, I’m a sweater-and-skirt girl. I think you’re just looking at a very range of camera-whore MtF’s. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/23 "2003-03-29T01:50:28Z")
Plus there’s always the possibility that the people you’re seeing are drag queens, not transfolk. The queens dress to the nines, darling, because ain’t nothin’ worth doin’ if it ain’t done well. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/24 "2003-03-29T01:58:03Z")
. . . very _narrow_ range, is what I meant to say. “Previewing” is also not worth doin’ if it ain’t done well. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/25 "2003-03-29T02:22:43Z")
I have an enormous amount of sympathy and empathy for anyone struggling with gender issues. While I never went through anything so traumatic, I spent a large chunk of my teen years not feeling that I was in the wrong body, but feeling that the problems my body caused were so blasted unfair that I really wanted to be male. (I had what relatives euphemistically called “female problems.”) Now, I realize that I was a bit unlucky, but nothing like the pain many people have to suffer for their genders and sexualities. If you’d asked me at 15 if I was lucky, I would have laughed in your face. How times change. Julie ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/26 "2003-03-29T03:18:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > **Have you ever realized that someone (perhaps someone you were reading about) was a different gender then you had assumed, and then suddenly felt some kind of shift in the way you think about them? Have you ever realized how hard it is to think about or interact with people of ambigous gender?** Well, I **do** have a copy of _It’s Pat: The Movie_ on laserdisc. But that’s because it reminds me of a hermaphrodite I used to date. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/27 "2003-03-29T03:56:58Z")
The “Pat” character mainly pokes fun at our social expectation that everyone fall within one of the two socially acceptable gender identities. People like Pat, who do not, are outside the bounds of society and thus normally the subject of ridicule. It is interesting to note that it is never made clear whether Pat’s ambiguous gender is the result of deliberate choice on Pat’s part, or just the way Pat happens to be. It never seems that Pat is deliberately trying to conceal eir gender; it’s just that every attempt by anyone else to discover it fails, usually by sheer bad luck. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/28 "2003-03-29T04:14:45Z")
Pat him/herself seems to think it should be obvious. For example, when people as Pat if Pat is boy/girl, Pat seems insulted. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/29 "2003-03-29T05:14:50Z")
The joke, of course, is not that Pat’s insulted by people asking, but that people are so **afraid** of insulting Pat that they have to try to ask “indirectly”. (And are, of course, constantly frustrated in their quest to determine Pat’s gender.) Of course, the fact that Pat is **oblivious** to Pat’s gender ambiguity also plays into the joke. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/30 "2003-03-29T08:06:56Z")
This isn’t really too hard to wrap your head around. Imagine how you’d feel if tomorrow, you woke up the opposite of whatever gender you currently are. Now imagine you’ve always felt like that. Presto: instant empathy. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/31 "2003-03-29T11:10:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*This isn’t really too hard to wrap your head around. Imagine how you’d feel if tomorrow, you woke up the opposite of whatever gender you currently are. > > Now imagine you’ve always felt like that. > > Presto: instant empathy. \*\* You know, I’ve thought about that. If I woke up a woman tomorrow, it would not bother me in the slightest. Ok, the initial shock would. But once that wore off I think I may even enjoy it. Maybe it’s just me though. If what I’ve heard about females and multiple orgasms is true, it would be worth it! ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/32 "2003-03-29T14:03:08Z")
“If I woke up a woman tomorrow, it would not bother me in the slightest.” –Oh, Rod? Rod Serling? You out there? Got a job for you . . . ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/33 "2003-03-29T14:46:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Maybe it’s just me though. If what I’ve heard about females and multiple orgasms is true, it would be worth it! \*\* Yeah, we’ve heard that joke before. The tragic truth is that an alarmingly large number of transwomen are unable to have an orgasm again, due to physical ramifications of the SRS, emotional or mental issues, or both. The numbers vary widely, but I have seen estimates as high as 50% unable to orgasm again after 2 years post SRS. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*This isn’t really too hard to wrap your head around. Imagine how you’d feel if tomorrow, you woke up the opposite of whatever gender you currently are. > > Now imagine you’ve always felt like that. > > Presto: instant empathy.\*\* Well, it’s a bit more serious than that. Imagine that you hate and loathe the body too, such that every mirror is a shock, and even catching a glance of yourself in someone’s sunglasses makes you shudder. Imagine looking at the clothes society forces you to wear and feeling sick putting them on. Imagine wincing as someone calls you “ma’am” or “sir”, depending. Imagine hating your body and feeling like you are so wrong that you have to start hurting it on purpose, cutting, burning, even breaking bones, to “teach it a lesson” or punish it. Or you self-mutilate to remove the offensive parts of your body. Or you move on to suicide, and then cease all imagination. Many are able to have SRS and experience an instant increase in the quality of life. Others don’t have the surgery, but are able to reach an understanding with their lives, and achieve self-acceptance. I think most suffer quietly in tremendous depression and self-loathing until they die, through one means or another. Actual statistics vary so widely I don’t even pay attention any more to them. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/34 "2003-03-29T15:12:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\*Yeah, we’ve heard that joke before. The tragic truth is that an alarmingly large number of transwomen are unable to have an orgasm again, due to physical ramifications of the SRS, emotional or mental issues, or both. The numbers vary widely, but I have seen estimates as high as 50% unable to orgasm again after 2 years post SRS. > \*\* That sounds so dire, but when you keep in mind that 25% of natal women are unable to orgasm, it doesn’t seem quite so bad. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/35 "2003-03-29T17:34:01Z")
Question: When you guys date, do you disclose your…er…situations? If so, at what point? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/36 "2003-03-29T18:09:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\*That sounds so dire, but when you keep in mind that 25% of natal women are unable to orgasm, it doesn’t seem quite so bad. \*\* You bring up a good point. But what I am saying is that for a large part those who undergo the M2F physical reassignment had bodies that before were much more likely to achieve orgasm - although, data is very sketchy on this. I’ve only ever seen one “before and after” study which gave that “less than 5%” of transsexual women could not have orgasm pre-operation, whereas it was close to (in that study) 45% post-op. And the difficulty of achieving orgasm increases substantially. For many, it is a minor thing. Trading orgasm for not hating yourself and trying to find new and inventive ways to punish your body for being wrong and evil is a trade up. But some people attach a great deal of importance to orgasm, and it’s definitely a danger they should consider. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/37 "2003-03-29T18:10:19Z")
**JerseyDiamond** : I don’t date. I think there is probably an obligation of disclosure before entering the “long-term” phase of an intimate relationship. Pre-ops should exercise caution about having casual sex with people who do not know, mainly for personal safety reasons. I do not believe that disclosure is ethically mandated, but it is probably necessary as a matter of safety because there are so many dangerously violent bigots out there. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/38 "2003-03-29T18:14:55Z")
**Anthracite** , was that study controlled for surgical technique or for surgeon? Some surgeons have much better reputations for producing orgasmic results than other. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/39 "2003-03-29T18:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\ ***Anthracite** , was that study controlled for surgical technique or for surgeon? Some surgeons have much better reputations for producing orgasmic results than other. \*\* No, IIRC it was not subdivided in the reporting like that. Complications are another key factor to consider, orgasm-inducing or not. Some people are in such poor health due to chronic illness they can’t get any doctor to approve elective surgery for them. ---
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565/40 "2003-03-29T19:06:56Z")
I know I’ve resolved this problem by not dating too, I’ve been celibate for what, three years and half. I’m acting like that because I am under the impression that not many people would be able to deal with how my body looks as of now, some people have this idea that I should just find a bi guy (I’m almost exclusively attracted to guys) but I doubt most bi guys would be interested in someone with a female body for the moment but whose amount of hairs is increasing following a male pattern, who bind their breasts and won’t take off their shirt, and maybe their pants too (since I wouldn’t want someone giving me the deer in the headlights look at the sight of what testosterone use do to female genitalia), during sex anyway. Too much complications you know. I would gladly date another ftm, simply to avoid all that explaining to do beforehand. When I was younger I used to go to gay cruising areas, where I didn’t need to disclose my trans status to do what I wanted to do. If I happened to talk with the guy, I was usually telling him though, after or before, it varied. When I tried to date online, I was always telling it before any real life contact, which assured me a close to 100% no-success rate. Once post op, meaning for ftms after “top surgery”, I’ll probably disclose my trans status before entering a more durable relationship but I will still reserve the right not to obligatory say it if I’m in a situation where I can manage not taking off my pants. Though I think I will usually say it anyway before anything happening in most cases, being ftm is something too important in my life for me to hide it to a potential lover. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexual-question/164565.md?page=3)