# Transsexuals and the "gender assigned at birth" phrase **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777 "2017-02-13T21:51:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/41 "2017-02-14T16:32:43Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Until a mostly red widget with a hint of blue comes along, and you decide that surely that’s a red widget. And then a mostly blue widget comes along with a hint of red, and you decide that management must have wanted that to count as a blue widget. And then a few different shades of purple roll down the line, and you start sweating. You put each widget in a bucket, because you _have_ to, but you know you’re making a judgement call. > > And then someone walks by and asks you what you’re doing, and you say, “I’m assigning these widgets to the red box or the blue box based on their perceived color characteristics,” and they think you’re crazy. I think a better analogy would be that Caitlyn Jenner was a blue widget until the day of the surgery, at which point Jenner was “painted red.” So before then, Jenner would have gone into the blue box, but after the surgery, into the red box. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/42 "2017-02-14T16:38:15Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The differences under discussion are structural, not (as far as we can tell) functional. We can say that this area of the brain is this shape and this size in a man, and this shape and size in a woman. What we can’t really do is say, “Therefore, men are better at X and women are better at Y,” or “This explains why women are so emotional,” and so forth. I’m not sure I understand the distinction. Can we look at the different shapes and sizes of areas of transgender people’s brains and say “Therefore, this person is more likely to identify as female despite the presence of XY chromosomes”? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/43 "2017-02-14T16:45:07Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think a better analogy would be that Caitlyn Jenner was a blue widget until the day of the surgery, at which point Jenner was “painted red.” So before then, Jenner would have gone into the blue box, but after the surgery, into the red box. Well, a better analogy would have more pattern matching. So blue ducks with red eyes go in the left box, red robins with green eyes go in the right box. And for a while, everything kind of fits that pattern, so you’re like, “Oh, this company makes blue ducks with red eyes and red robins with green eyes.” But then a blue duck with green eyes rolls down, and you say, “Well it’s mostly a blue duck, left box.” And then a red duck with green eyes rolls down the line, and you say, “Well it’s mostly red, right box, in with the robins.” It’s a judgement call based on a desire to categorize things. But why is red more important than duck? Or is it? We can find examples of real humans with all kind of different variations on the M/F pattern we see – external genitalia, internal organs, chromosomes, brain structure. The status quo has been that we force all of these variations into one of two categories, but we need to ask, is having a penis more useful for categorization than brain structure? If so, why? What makes a penis a better defining characteristic of a male than a male-structured brain? Ultimately, we just need to get away from forcing humans into boxes. Or at least poke some holes in them first, otherwise they’ll suffocate. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/44 "2017-02-14T16:46:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m not sure I understand the distinction. Can we look at the different shapes and sizes of areas of transgender people’s brains and say “Therefore, this person is more likely to identify as female despite the presence of XY chromosomes”? > > Regards, > Shodan Not yet. But possibly some day. The science is still developing. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/45 "2017-02-14T17:21:31Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Some people aren’t as clear cut. They may be XXY, or be XY, but present visually as perfectly normal females. that’s called a genetic mutation. If you’re not one of them, you’re either clear cut male or female. Stop trying to change everything, liberals. The only reason transvestitism became a political cause celebre is because after gay rights were won, the left needed something to whip people up again. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/46 "2017-02-14T17:30:17Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > that’s called a genetic mutation. If you’re not one of them, you’re either clear cut male or female. Stop trying to change everything, liberals. The only reason transvestitism became a political cause celebre is because after gay rights were won, the left needed something to whip people up again. You show, again and again, that you know nothing about the science of transgenderism (not “transvestitism”, which for some reason you are repeating), and are apparently uninterested in actually learning. I would assume such an attitude is related to your stated feelings that transgender people are “repulsive” and “disgusting”. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/47 "2017-02-14T17:31:29Z")
I’m wondering if I’m the only one who is concerned about brain stucture being used to verify someone’s self-professed gender. I suspect that we will find that brain structure-self-identity is rife with some level of discordancy. Maybe not as much as genitalia-self identity or chromosomes-self-identity. But still some signicant level, because biology is noisy. If a brain pings as “male-like”, but its owner nonetheless identifies as female, where do we get off telling her she’s wrong? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/48 "2017-02-14T17:35:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m wondering if I’m the only one who is concerned about brain stucture being used to verify someone’s self-professed gender. > > I suspect that we will find that brain structure-self-identity is rife with some level of discordancy. Maybe not as much as genitalia-self identity or chromosomes-self-identity. But still some signicant level, because biology is noisy. If a brain pings as “male-like”, but its owner nonetheless identifies as female, where do we get off telling her she’s wrong? There shouldn’t need to be such an identifier, IMO. Treating people as their preferred/identified gender doesn’t have a cost – it’s as free as “don’t insult people at random”. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/49 "2017-02-14T17:41:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There shouldn’t need to be such an identifier, IMO. Treating people as their preferred/identified gender doesn’t have a cost – it’s as free as “don’t insult people at random”. until one day, its YOUR boy who looks at doll houses a certain way, and the school psychologists convince you he’s “transgender,” they convince you to mutilate him and make him something he’s not, and his life is ruined. Or its your girl who wants to be recruited to college for sports but has to compete against a genetic male given that males’ bone structures ARE fundamentally and immutably different than girls. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/50 "2017-02-14T17:52:51Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > until one day, its YOUR boy who looks at doll houses a certain way, and the school psychologists convince you he’s “transgender,” they convince you to mutilate him and make him something he’s not, and his life is ruined. Or its your girl who wants to be recruited to college for sports but has to compete against a genetic male given that males’ bone structures ARE fundamentally and immutably different than girls. Again, why do you talk about transgender issues when you so obviously know nothing about them? Your first sentence is entirely false. Your second frames a concern that is regularly discussed, including on this board, but is of tertiary importance to the much more common issues that transgender people face. Accepting and treating transgender people with respect and decency does not mean that you can’t ask questions about athletics – but you haven’t crossed that first and necessary step of treating transgender people with respect and decency. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/51 "2017-02-14T18:07:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m wondering if I’m the only one who is concerned about brain stucture being used to verify someone’s self-professed gender. It does have a bit of a vibe of [measuring heads to determine if they’re Negro or not](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_anthropometry), at least to me, but that might just be my own negative connotations showing. ETA: Admittedly, some of the links posted earlier are still on my: to-read list ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/52 "2017-02-14T18:10:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Again, why do you talk about transgender issues when you so obviously know nothing about them? Your first sentence is entirely false. Your second frames a concern that is regularly discussed, including on this board, but is of tertiary importance to the much more common issues that transgender people face. Accepting and treating transgender people with respect and decency does not mean that you can’t ask questions about athletics – but you haven’t crossed that first and necessary step of treating transgender people with respect and decency. He’s been fact-checked numerous times on both those “points” he brings up, and is still allowed to bait people with them. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/53 "2017-02-14T18:28:00Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > He’s been fact-checked numerous times on both those “points” he brings up, and is still allowed to bait people with them. what do you mean “allowed?” That I shouldn’t be able to voice what I believe, that I should be shut down like Milo was by “peacenik” types at UC Berkeley? Donald J. Trump won: we can question some of this SJW business we see, especially when the answers from proponents are so inconsistent: can’t talk about female brain for jobs, but can for transgenderism. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/54 "2017-02-14T18:31:29Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > until one day, its YOUR boy who looks at doll houses a certain way, and the school psychologists convince you he’s “transgender,” they convince you to mutilate him and make him something he’s not, and his life is ruined. That’s a scary legend. Do you have any evidence that this has actually happened? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/55 "2017-02-14T19:08:31Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > what do you mean “allowed?” That I shouldn’t be able to voice what I believe, that I should be shut down like Milo was by “peacenik” types at UC Berkeley? Donald J. Trump won: we can question some of this SJW business we see, especially when the answers from proponents are so inconsistent: can’t talk about female brain for jobs, but can for transgenderism. So if Hillary had won, you’d be shutting up about this? But I’m glad you’ve found a new hero in Milo, since you and he share the same hobby. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/56 "2017-02-14T19:29:49Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > This simplest answer is because a large number of us have a female mental gender which fully expects and desires to have the correct body to match. . . . > > Increasingly, there is a small subset of “non-ops,” male and female, who can exist happily with whatever genital configuration they were born with. thank you, **Una Persson** , for answering my question, i always enjoy your writing. i suspected much of what you said was the answer. let me follow up with; if society were as accepting of male/girls and female/boys (and all the others) as we are of male/boys and female/girls, would that subset continue to grow, or is the boy brain so insistent on seeing a penis, for example, that body modification will always be a large part of our culture? mc ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/57 "2017-02-14T19:46:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It does have a bit of a vibe of [measuring heads to determine if they’re Negro or not](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_anthropometry), at least to me, but that might just be my own negative connotations showing. Since you bring up race, I’m curious what’s your take on racial identification. The race that someone is assigned at birth does not necessarily line up with the race they identify with as an adult, the race that most others perceive them to belong to, and the race suggested by anthropological/DNA analysis. I think most people would say it doesn’t matter (or at least acknowledge that it shoudn’t matter). I don’t see why gender shouldn’t be treated the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/58 "2017-02-14T19:53:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There shouldn’t need to be such an identifier, IMO. Treating people as their preferred/identified gender doesn’t have a cost – it’s as free as “don’t insult people at random”. ISTM this is a loophole potentially leading to exploitation. A man could identify as a woman in order to get onto the women’s Olympic soccer team, where he would have a physical advantage over the female players on the field. Same goes with self-identified racial characteristics; white people could identify as racial minorities in order to claim affirmative action benefits. Sure, it’s wrong, but people have been doing wrong things for millenia. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/59 "2017-02-14T19:58:19Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > ISTM this is a loophole potentially leading to exploitation. A man could identify as a woman in order to get onto the women’s Olympic soccer team, where he would have a physical advantage over the female players on the field. Same goes with self-identified racial characteristics; white people could identify as racial minorities in order to claim affirmative action benefits. > > Sure, it’s wrong, but people have been doing wrong things for millenia. On your first example, athletics really is a special case, worthy of further discussion, as long as we agree to treat transgender people with decency and respect in terms of their day-to-day existence. On your second, race is not gender, and I didn’t advocate that transracial (if this even exists) is the same or should be treated the same as transgender. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/60 "2017-02-14T20:13:29Z")
Except in day to day life, the polite thing to do is just pretend to believe people when they tell you their gender identity. That six foot tall person with broad shoulders and razor stubble who says they’re a woman? Even if you have some doubts, what’s in it for you to contradict them? Because there are lots and lots of XX people who were born with female genitalia and identify as women who are super-butch. Plus a lot of slim, hairless, XY people with penises who identify as men. If you’re going to say that someone who “looks like” a man is a man, no matter what they themselves say, then you’re going to misgender a lot of people who according to your own gender essentialist philosophy are 100% women. Female external genitalia? Check. Ovaries and uterus? Check. XX chromosomes? Check. Raised as a girl by their society? Check. Identify as female? Check. Except broad shoulders and a bit of a mustache. So which bathroom are they supposed to use now? However, while women’s sports leagues typically just accept people’s gender at face value, lots of people can and are excluded from participating in women’s sports because of various gender mismatches. [It’s not enough to just put on a dress to get to go to the Olympics on the women’s team](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports). Still, nobody asked for a genetic test when my sisters signed up for the local women’s hockey league. Plenty of super-butch women in that hockey league, along with plenty of conventionally feminine women too. If you’re a guy who puts on a dress and joins the women’s hockey team to get an advantage, well, I guess you’re going to dominate the league that year. Yay for you, you’re super awesome! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777.md?page=4)