# Transsexuals and the "gender assigned at birth" phrase **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777 "2017-02-13T21:51:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/61 "2017-02-14T20:13:57Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > As Una pointed out, the distinction between “sex” and “gender” in English goes back to at least 1398, and the distinction in the concepts runs back as far as human history does. Conservatives have a tendency to decide that whatever concepts they were taught as a kid go back all the way to ancient times, but it’s just not true. The OED cites I found refer to male, female, and neuter forms of nouns as “gender”, but not sexual identity. It’s a _grammatical_ concept not applied to people until recently. Anthropologists in the 70s pioneered the concept of gender identity as different from biological sex, in an academic sense. I’m referring to Western/European culture of course. By the way, I’m not taking an antagonistic stance here or trying to discredit the concept. But some of these cited facts seem like revisionism. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/62 "2017-02-14T20:43:02Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m wondering if I’m the only one who is concerned about brain stucture being used to verify someone’s self-professed gender. It works for me in a piling-on-the-evidence way: if there’s physical differences between cis and trans brains, that’s a fine thing to point out. But it’s not necessary. Consider: if it turned out that the science on brain differences were flawed, and that new research found no differences with statistical significance, would that mean that trans rights should evaporate? Of course not. The key, for me, is that I should wherever possible respect folks’ identity. It’s the decent thing to do. If respecting their identity causes me a little bit of discomfort, that’s okay, since the alternative is for them to bear the discomfort constantly. In this case, it’s easy to respect this aspect of their identity. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/63 "2017-02-14T21:05:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Since you bring up race, I’m curious what’s your take on racial identification. The race that someone is assigned at birth does not necessarily line up with the race they identify with as an adult, the race that most others perceive them to belong to, and the race suggested by anthropological/DNA analysis. I think most people would say it doesn’t matter (or at least acknowledge that it shoudn’t matter). I don’t see why gender shouldn’t be treated the same way. I think the problem with that is that most of us learned back in Junior High School Biology that there were two (2) genders, male and female, and they’re defined by the DNA. Now we know that there are more than just those two. The example with race would be, if we were told that there were only two races, white & black, and everybody just thought those Asians were crazy, but now we’ve got some genetic studies to show that yeah, actually, Asians do exist. So, it’s taking people time to get used to the idea that all that stuff they had to memorize back in school is subject to change, rather than engraved in stone for all time. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/64 "2017-02-14T21:07:02Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > thank you, **Una Persson** , for answering my question, i always enjoy your writing. i suspected much of what you said was the answer. let me follow up with; > > if society were as accepting of male/girls and female/boys (and all the others) as we are of male/boys and female/girls, would that subset continue to grow, or is the boy brain so insistent on seeing a penis, for example, that body modification will always be a large part of our culture? > > mc I have to think it would increase, but who can tell. It certainly would be nice if people just fell in love with the other person’s mind and not their genitals. Personally I don’t really care much about genitals. If my partner has a penis or vagina…it just doesn’t matter to me. What matters to me is what’s between their ears. I’m also not so naive as to think even a significant number of people feel the same way as myself. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/65 "2017-02-14T21:08:37Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > ISTM this is a loophole potentially leading to exploitation. A man could identify as a woman in order to get onto the women’s Olympic soccer team, where he would have a physical advantage over the female players on the field. Same goes with self-identified racial characteristics; white people could identify as racial minorities in order to claim affirmative action benefits. > > Sure, it’s wrong, but people have been doing wrong things for millenia. This is why almost all major sporting bodies follow the IOC standards for transgender and intersex athletes. Would you be surprised to know I published a 12,000 word study on this? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/66 "2017-02-14T22:14:01Z")
with all the issues surrounding transgender people these days, why do so many fixate on athletics? when i was in high school (way back in the 70’s, yikes where does the time go!) i played football against a boy who at 15yo was already 6’8" and 360 lbs; literally a giant! was that an unfair advantage? you bet it was, but we just had to suck it up and deal! life is some times not fair. and if, on the off chance that one male/girl transgender gains an unfair advantage in a game after a lifetime of disadvantage and discrimination, would that really be so bad? mc ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/67 "2017-02-14T22:32:08Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > . . . can’t talk about female brain for jobs, but can for transgenderism. i’m pretty sure nobody doubts that males and females think differently, that they react to situations differently, that they experience emotions differently, and now there is some scientific evidence to point out that maybe the brain is actually physically different. if you want to talk about how each of these things effects how men and women approach their jobs and how they might do them differently, i dont think you’ll get shouted down. the problem comes when someone tries to use these differences to justify discrimination; to say that these differences make women incapable of or incompetent at certain jobs, that is when the chorus of disapproval will begin to become deafening. mc ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/68 "2017-02-14T22:32:40Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Since you bring up race, I’m curious what’s your take on racial identification. The race that someone is assigned at birth does not necessarily line up with the race they identify with as an adult, the race that most others perceive them to belong to, and the race suggested by anthropological/DNA analysis. I think most people would say it doesn’t matter (or at least acknowledge that it shoudn’t matter). I don’t see why gender shouldn’t be treated the same way. I think Rachel Dolezal is a goofball and very probably mentally ill, but like you said, it doesn’t really matter, no skin off my nose, so I don’t really care. Same with when I meet a feminine-looking person who wants to be addressed “Sir” or a masculine-looking person who wants to be called “Ma’am”. Whatever, I’m fine with that. I’d appreciate it if you didn’t jump down my throat if I get it wrong the first time I glance at you. A polite clarification will do fine (which has always been my personal experience the handful of times I’ve stuck my foot in my mouth in this sort of situation). Even if something egregious happened, like a masculine-looking person groping my wife while she changes in the women’s locker room at the gym, I’d smash their head with a brick, regardless of whether they identify as a man or woman. TL;DR: I don’t really care what race or gender you identify as. I’ll even try to use the correct pronouns when speaking to / about you. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/69 "2017-02-14T22:41:06Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > with all the issues surrounding transgender people these days, why do so many fixate on athletics? I think the concern is that traditionally-feminine-body-typed women would get pushed out of most competitive sports if we didn’t have separate leagues for women. If transgendered women are allowed to bring all the physical advantages of being a man to a woman’s sports league, it’s the start of the process. I don’t think it’d be all that common today if it’s allowed, but who knows. People do weird stuff for fame sometimes. But that’s just a guess. I’m all for unisex competitive sports anyways. The WNBA is boring. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/70 "2017-02-14T23:03:14Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > with all the issues surrounding transgender people these days, why do so many fixate on athletics? It’s one of the few forms of sex discrimination that is still socially legitimate. Whereas before, people who were transphobic might say “But women can’t do science! You can’t just put on a dress and all the sudden be good at ironing clothes!” and other absurdities, nowadays respectable transphobes only have sports to latch onto. And lockers and public bathrooms, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/71 "2017-02-14T23:09:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think the concern is that traditionally-feminine-body-typed women would get pushed out of most competitive sports if we didn’t have separate leagues for women. **If transgendered women are allowed to bring all the physical advantages of being a man to a woman’s sports league, it’s the start of the process.** I don’t think it’d be all that common today if it’s allowed, but who knows. People do weird stuff for fame sometimes. According to an article on Everyday Feminism, the problem with that is that transwomen take testosterone blockers which make it difficult for them to retain any muscle mass, even to the point of being generally weaker than cisgender females. > **[No, Female Trans Athletes Do Not Have Unfair Advantages](https://everydayfeminism.com/2017/01/no-unfair-advantage-trans-athletes/)** > > Critical to understanding how trans athletes are discriminated against is an understanding of how hormone levels differ between men and women. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/72 "2017-02-15T01:57:32Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > until one day, its YOUR boy who looks at doll houses a certain way, and the school psychologists convince you he’s “transgender,” they convince you to mutilate him and make him something he’s not, and his life is ruined. Or its your girl who wants to be recruited to college for sports but has to compete against a genetic male given that males’ bone structures ARE fundamentally and immutably different than girls. Yeah look. I don’t think anybody is gonna be looking to convince you to mutilate your children. I could see how the school psychologists would be a little concerned if they had a kid with crippling issues as a result of his parents demanding that he do boy shit “because he’s a little boy dammit!”. Not treating your children like children is a sure fire way to go from parent to life ruiner real fuckin quick. Of course I suppose blaming their failures on that girl that used to be a boy on the other team that one time might also cause different issues. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/73 "2017-02-15T02:08:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > On your first example, athletics really is a special case, worthy of further discussion, as long as we agree to treat transgender people with decency and respect in terms of their day-to-day existence. On your second, race is not gender, and I didn’t advocate that transracial (if this even exists) is the same or should be treated the same as transgender. first, lets preserve a strong and defined culture for the majority (non-trans) before we start worrying about the trannies. and why not transracial? If both race AND gender are “just constructs” according to liberals, why not both? You can’t have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/74 "2017-02-15T02:18:00Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > first, lets preserve a strong and defined culture for the majority (non-trans) before we start worrying about the trannies. > > and why not transracial? If both race AND gender are “just constructs” according to liberals, why not both? You can’t have it both ways. Holy shit. Seriously? Why can’t I have it both ways? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/75 "2017-02-15T03:15:29Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > until one day, its YOUR boy who looks at doll houses a certain way, and the school psychologists convince you he’s “transgender,” they convince you to mutilate him and make him something he’s not, and his life is ruined. Given that you’ve been schooled repeatedly that this is in fact a false scenario, the fact that you keep deliberately bringing up a false scenario calls your motives into question. > [@](#): > > Or its your girl who wants to be recruited to college for sports but has to compete against a genetic male given that males’ bone structures ARE fundamentally and immutably different than girls. Given that I’ve supplied you with numerous cites that this is not at all how you like to characterize it, the fact you continue to deliberately post it calls your understanding of fact and fiction into question. > [@](#): > > first, lets preserve a strong and defined culture for the majority (non-trans) before we start worrying about the **trannies.** The fact that you are posting hate speech about people like me in a thread I’m posting in calls all sorts of things into question. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/76 "2017-02-15T03:15:44Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > first, lets preserve a strong and defined culture for the majority (non-trans) before we start worrying about the trannies. This is a warning for using hate speech. Do not do this again. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/77 "2017-02-15T03:16:00Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > first, lets preserve a strong and defined culture for the majority (non-trans) before we start worrying about the trannies. > > and why not transracial? If both race AND gender are “just constructs” according to liberals, why not both? You can’t have it both ways. I only want to say this one, Derek. ‘Tranny’ and it’s variants are considered the equivalent of ‘kikes’ or ‘niggers’ or such here. Do it again and it will not go well for you. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/78 "2017-02-15T06:36:10Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > what do you mean “allowed?” That I shouldn’t be able to voice what I believe, that I should be shut down like Milo was by “peacenik” types at UC Berkeley? Donald J. Trump won: we can question some of this SJW business we see, especially when the answers from proponents are so inconsistent: can’t talk about female brain for jobs, but can for transgenderism. “Allowed” is the correct verb. You are free to post your beliefs and opinions, even when they clearly are factually wrong, forcing others to continually correct them because we do not apply prior censorship to posts, here. On the other hand, those who find themselves continually having to correct your errors of fact are also free to express their annoyance at the need to correct your errors of fact that you hold as such Trumpian beliefs. Trump did win the election. Despite that, crime, that he claims is rising, has still been falling since the 1990s; Anthropogenic Global Warming is still a genuine phenomenon even if he stupidly claims that it is a Chinese hoax, there have still been no acts of terror committed in the U.S. by refugees from the seven countries in which he does not have investments that he is trying to ban, and your beliefs about transgender issues continue to be factually wrong in every post you submit. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/79 "2017-02-15T09:55:55Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > first, lets preserve a strong and defined culture for the majority (non-trans) before we start worrying about the trannies. Once again your hate shines through. > [@](#): > > and why not transracial? If both race AND gender are “just constructs” according to liberals, why not both? You can’t have it both ways. If you want to advocate this, why not start another thread? It’s not the topic of this one. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/80 "2017-02-15T18:11:57Z")
It’s also pretty funny that the gender essentialists are oh-so concerned with women’s sports, but also make sure to tell us that women’s sports are boring and for losers and something nobody should care about. And of course, the good old “what if it was your daughter?” It’s 2017, are we still really going to frame gender issues this way? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777.md?page=5)