# Transsexuals and the "gender assigned at birth" phrase **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777 "2017-02-13T21:51:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/101 "2017-02-16T05:34:02Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > This is the source of my “but what about men in dresses ruining stupid and boring women’s sports?” amusement. > > If you don’t care about women’s sports, why bring up the fact that transsexuals are going to ruin women’s sports? He didn’t bring it up. He was responding to someone else who brought it up. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/102 "2017-02-16T12:07:27Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Dude, what is with your obsession with trans people? Why does it bother you so fucking much? So some people are trans – big deal. It’s not affecting you in any way. Maybe he’s scared to death he’ll pick up a woman for a date and she will turn out to have been “assigned male at birth”. At which point arguably it would be affecting him. Of course, that can probably be avoided by not picking up complete strangers (get to know folks first, then get intimate) and making it clear on dating sites that transwomen do not appeal to him. I can’t imagine he’d be very appealing to them, either. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/103 "2017-02-16T13:18:52Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Weight divisions are just one idea thrown out there - I think I noted (can’t open it from phone right now) that it could lead to additional problems, and is no panacea. I agree completely with your tennis assessment (and also find it strange that that is the situation with the Williams sisters). > > The over-arching point is that if transgender women athletes have such a huge advantage because of their “male bone structure” or whatever people can point to…it’s not borne up at all by experience. The principal cases where gender-crossing athletes have been a concern are intersex athletes. The point was mostly about the idea that my gender is, or should be, whatever I decide it is, apart from any physical characteristics (except, maybe, for theoretical brain structures). I think you would agree that intersex people are a subset of transgender people in general. Estrogen treatments and hormone blockers and so forth are certainly going to affect athletic performance, and, as you mention in the article, are much more of a commitment than even a serious athlete is likely to take, just to win in the women’s divisions. But there are significant, non-culturally defined differences between men and women that are not affected by self-identification. Therefore it isn’t going to possible to treat everyone who self-identifies as “a man” or “a woman” the same. What situations in which it is appropriate to say, “Sorry, one’s self-identification doesn’t change things” is the vexed question, of course. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/104 "2017-02-16T14:59:20Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > This is the source of my “but what about men in dresses ruining stupid and boring women’s sports?” amusement. > > If you don’t care about women’s sports, why bring up the fact that transsexuals are going to ruin women’s sports? It was in response to a question: “why do so many fixate on athletics?” I don’t consider myself one of those “fixated” on athletics. I was just trying to share one perspective (out of many possible). Is that clearer? ETA: and now on the next page I see Miller already answered this. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/105 "2017-02-16T16:23:23Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I can’t imagine he’d be very appealing to them, either. Remarks about a person’s appeal or attractiveness or lack thereof in this fashion are not appropriate for this forum. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/106 "2017-02-16T17:26:29Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > The OED cites I found refer to male, female, and neuter forms of nouns as “gender”, but not sexual identity. It’s a _grammatical_ concept not applied to people until recently. > > Anthropologists in the 70s pioneered the concept of gender identity as different from biological sex, in an academic sense. I’m referring to Western/European culture of course. > > By the way, I’m not taking an antagonistic stance here or trying to discredit the concept. But some of these cited facts seem like revisionism. I agree. The original comment went back to an earlier one from a ‘conservative’ (at least somebody criticizing ‘liberals’) who said in effect gender and sex had always been the same thing until recently. Which is not literally true, but for the reason you say. The word gender wasn’t generally applied to people at all. In fact it does go back ages, not just since conservatives were taught in school, that there was no distinction between a person’s sex in terms of genitalia (or much later, chromosomes)…and any other definition of sexual identity. Men who liked to dress as women, etc, were just that. It’s OK to push for a basically new concept of ‘gender’ (sexual identity) as distinct from sex. But implying it’s always been around is a stretch. And it’s absurd to maintain a nomenclature where gender=sex and then speak of OB/GYN’s ‘assigning’ it. Doctors don’t ‘assign’ anything, they see the physical evidence of sex. A nomenclature which distinguishes ‘sex’ and ‘gender’, by recruiting the latter term to mean ‘non-physical aspect of male/female sexuality identity’ might or might not be useful or valid, that’s to debate IMO. But a claim that the medical profession is ‘assigning’ anything by observing physical characteristics of an infant’s sex is risible. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/107 "2017-02-16T19:49:37Z")
to those arguing about taking hormones as a way for formerly-male-now-females to play female sports, sorry, but lipstick on a pig is ultimately still lipstick on a pig. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Dude, what is with your obsession with trans people? Why does it bother you so fucking much? So some people are trans – big deal. It’s not affecting you in any way. its not an obsession, but its a major flash point in the left’s effort to make all people who are part of a majority or advantaged group, such as whites, (cis)males, feel guilty, “check” privilege, and ultimately “give up” privilege. The result they seek, forced downwards equality rather than induced upwards equality, seems very similar to what Lenin and Mao tried (but with economic class). It didn’t work too well. An attempt to make us all into the Goobacks of South Park. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/108 "2017-02-16T20:00:57Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > to those arguing about taking hormones as a way for formerly-male-now-females to play female sports, sorry, but lipstick on a pig is ultimately still lipstick on a pig. So, you’re unable to refute any of the points raised. Par for the course, but good to see you sum it up so succinctly. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/109 "2017-02-16T20:05:11Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > to those arguing about taking hormones as a way for formerly-male-now-females to play female sports, sorry, but lipstick on a pig is ultimately still lipstick on a pig. Whether this is an intentionally hateful remark or just incredibly tone-deaf, it continues to demonstrate your lack of understanding of this issue. Though to discuss things like athletics, we first have to agree to treat transgender people with decency, dignity, and respect. > [@](#): > > its not an obsession, but its a major flash point in the left’s effort to make all people who are part of a majority or advantaged group, such as whites, (cis)males, feel guilty, “check” privilege, and ultimately “give up” privilege. The result they seek, forced downwards equality rather than induced upwards equality, seems very similar to what Lenin and Mao tried (but with economic class). It didn’t work too well. An attempt to make us all into the Goobacks of South Park. Not surprisingly, you misunderstand “the left”, in general, as well. None of this describes what transgender rights activists, or the left in general, advocate. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/110 "2017-02-16T20:05:12Z")
Wow, I don’t feel guilty about transsexuals, at all. So I’ve got that going for me. Maybe I don’t feel guilty because I haven’t done anything to feel guilty about? The only part of the transgender movement that I can’t stand are all the people who call in to Dan Savage’s podcast who have to proclaim that they’re cisgendered. Is the fact that you’re cisgendered or transgendered relevant to your sex/relationship question? No? Then why are you bringing it up? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/111 "2017-02-16T20:19:13Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > its not an obsession, but its a major flash point in the left’s effort to make all people who are part of a majority or advantaged group, such as whites, (cis)males, feel guilty, “check” privilege, and ultimately “give up” privilege. The result they seek, forced downwards equality rather than induced upwards equality, seems very similar to what Lenin and Mao tried (but with economic class). It didn’t work too well. An attempt to make us all into the Goobacks of South Park. i’m sorry you feel this why, and i, as a cis-gendered white male my self do not wish to make you or anyone else feel guilty. i think for many of us this can be considered new information, so there should be no shame in our past mistakes. and i may regret asking, but why do you feel that recognizing that there are different types of genders is “forced downward equity?” mc ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/112 "2017-02-16T20:34:57Z")
Double post – fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/113 "2017-02-16T20:35:23Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The only part of the transgender movement that I can’t stand are all the people who call in to Dan Savage’s podcast who have to proclaim that they’re cisgendered. Is the fact that you’re cisgendered or transgendered relevant to your sex/relationship question? No? Then why are you bringing it up? I’m guessing some cis people do it out of some form of “solidarity” with transfolk, and others do it because they think it’s expected (particularly after hearing the first group). It’s like all the people who feel the need to announce that they’re “GGG” - we get it, you’re a wonderful person, your partner is lucky to have you, get to the point already. However, being a transperson is often a significant factor in a relationship dynamic even for non-sexual questions and flagging this will inform Savage’s understanding of the situation at hand and what advice he gives. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/114 "2017-02-16T20:36:36Z")
What the fuck are “forced downwards equality” or “induced upwards equality”? > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > to those arguing about taking hormones as a way for formerly-male-now-females to play female sports, sorry, but lipstick on a pig is ultimately still lipstick on a pig. > > its not an obsession, but its a major flash point in the left’s effort to make all people who are part of a majority or advantaged group, such as whites, (cis)males, feel guilty, “check” privilege, and ultimately “give up” privilege. The result they seek, forced downwards equality rather than induced upwards equality, seems very similar to what Lenin and Mao tried (but with economic class). It didn’t work too well. An attempt to make us all into the Goobacks of South Park. So basically instead it should be, “Be a good little trans and we’ll give you rights.” Uh huh. (I think you also totally missed the point of that episode) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/115 "2017-02-16T20:43:16Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > What the fuck are “forced downwards equality” or “induced upwards equality”? Not to speak for him (heaven forfend) but I suspect “forced downwards equality” is intended to mean some sort of Harrison Bergeronesque scenario where all are forced down to the level of the lowest common denominator, as opposed to the alternative where those lagging behind by whatever metric are induced in some way to raise their game. Please note that that I do not in any way endorse **DerekMichaels00** ’s views. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/116 "2017-02-16T20:50:07Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Not to speak for him (heaven forfend) but I suspect “forced downwards equality” is intended to mean some sort of Harrison Bergeronesque scenario where all are forced down to the level of the lowest common denominator, as opposed to the alternative where those lagging behind by whatever metric are induced in some way to raise their game. > > Please note that that I do not in any way endorse **DerekMichaels00** ’s views. I can’t even figure out what that would look like. If I’m forced down to the level of trans people, what will that mean for me? Will I be given random doses of hormones by evil doctors? Will I have to change my name to a feminine name on alternate Tuesday? Will I start menstruating? It’s a gibberish concept. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/117 "2017-02-16T20:58:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It’s a gibberish concept. ok, lets not forget we’re in GD and not the pit. and as i said, i may regret asking; but i really would like **DerekMichaels00** to calmy and rationally explain why he thinks it would be a downward move to recognize the differences in others. as i think there may be others who feel this way and it would be unproductive to dismiss their views as gibberish. mc ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/118 "2017-02-16T20:58:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I can’t even figure out what that would look like. If I’m forced down to the level of trans people, what will that mean for me? Will I be given random doses of hormones by evil doctors? Will I have to change my name to a feminine name on alternate Tuesday? Will I start menstruating? > > It’s a gibberish concept. Perhaps he means that he believes liberals seek to make straight white cis males feel ashamed and inferior due to their heterosexuality and race and gender and gender identity in the same way that non-het, non-white, non-cis, non-male people have been made to feel ashamed and inferior historically. It’s equality of humiliation and shame for all! And also miniature American flags! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/119 "2017-02-16T21:08:48Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > ok, lets not forget we’re in GD and not the pit. I know precisely where I am. There’s no injunction in GD to treat ideas with respect, unless I’ve vastly misunderstood the rules. > [@](#): > > and as i said, i may regret asking; but i really would like **DerekMichaels00** to calmy and rationally explain why he thinks it would be a downward move to recognize the differences in others. Sure, yeah, that’d be peachy, and I wish you the best of luck in obtaining a rational explanation. I think my daughter’s desire for a sparkly magical alicorn is equally likely to be fulfilled, for similar reasons. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/120 "2017-02-16T21:16:33Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I know precisely where I am. There’s no injunction in GD to treat ideas with respect, unless I’ve vastly misunderstood the rules. > > Sure, yeah, that’d be peachy, and I wish you the best of luck in obtaining a rational explanation. I think my daughter’s desire for a sparkly magical alicorn is equally likely to be fulfilled, for similar reasons. sorry, i didnt mean to come across as a jr mod, i just always hope for respectful discourse. (and i realize you didnt start it) and where could i get one of those alicorns? mc [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777.md?page=7)