# Transsexuals and the "gender assigned at birth" phrase **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777 "2017-02-13T21:51:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/121 "2017-02-16T21:26:16Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > sorry, i didnt mean to come across as a jr mod, i just always hope for respectful discourse. (and i realize you didnt start it) > > and where could i get one of those alicorns? Wish hard enough, and anything can happen! (and no worries!) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/122 "2017-02-16T21:41:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What situations in which it is appropriate to say, “Sorry, one’s self-identification doesn’t change things” is the vexed question, of course. Why? What’s vexing about it? I don’t see any transgender-rights advocates trying to argue that gender identity “changes” anything that already exists. On the contrary, in fact. Women who were born with penises, or men who were born with vaginas, or anybody else whose anatomy/chromosomes and gender identity don’t fit neatly into the first-approximation sex/gender binary categories, already know what equipment they were born with, and they aren’t denying it, AFAICT. Their identifying as their preferred gender isn’t an attempt to change existing facts about the characteristics of their bodies at birth. Instead, it’s an attempt to gain recognition for **other** existing facts, which have previously been suppressed and denied in order to conform to the first-approximation binary categories. It’s this suppression that seems to make so many people wrongly imagine that transgender people are somehow trying to “cheat” their way into a status they’re not entitled to. It reminds me of my Vietnamese-immigrant schoolfriend back when I was a kid, who refused to believe that our classmate (whose name wasn’t actually Ewan MacDougal but might as well have been) was of Scots descent, because his hair was black instead of red. She knew that Scottish people have red hair, because back in Vietnam she had a textbook that said so. I’m not sure whether she thought “Ewan” was lying, deceived or just plain crazy, but she wouldn’t take his word (sorry, worrrrrd) for it that his ancestry was Scots. The fact is, though, some Scots do have black hair. Likewise, some women have (or used to have) penises. Some men have (or used to have) vaginas. ISTM that it makes far more sense to accept additional facts about our simplistic classification schemes than to automatically accuse people whose identities don’t conform to that classification of deception or cheating. “Ewan” wasn’t trying to pretend that his hair was red. Similarly, transgender women, for example, aren’t trying to pretend that they weren’t born with penises. The point is simply that yes, you can be Scots without having red hair, and you can be a woman with a penis. Because the category in question is more complicated than some people naively assume it to be. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > effort to make all people who are part of a majority or advantaged group, such as whites, (cis)males, feel guilty People who refuse to acknowledge the existence of facts, such as the scientific evidence for the role of brain structures in forming gender identity that may not fit into neat binary categories with chromosomes and/or genitalia, **should** feel guilty about it. Around here especially, that sort of deliberate willful ignorance is something one is expected to feel VERY guilty about. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/123 "2017-02-16T21:59:50Z")
> [@](#): > > . . .but she wouldn’t take his word (sorry, worrrrrd) for it that his ancestry was Scots. wow! was wasnt expecting to lol reading your post, thanks! 😃 mc ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/124 "2017-02-16T22:27:06Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > to those arguing about taking hormones as a way for formerly-male-now-females to play female sports, sorry, but lipstick on a pig is ultimately still lipstick on a pig. An answer that happens to be simultaneously offensive, devoid of any evidence, devoid of any fact, not even entertaining, and lacking any redeeming value. Why even post if you are unable to rise to the level of the conversation? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/125 "2017-02-17T00:53:31Z")
so ive been reading old threads on this and related topics here on the dope. alot of good info. thanks again **Una Persson** and others, youve been more patient than i would have been! mc ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/126 "2017-02-17T01:31:08Z")
The way some of these conversations go, I’m surprised **Una** hasn’t hunted down and murdered someone yet. _Or has she?_ ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/127 "2017-02-17T01:39:32Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But is completely contradicted by her XY chromosomes and her internal reproductive organs. As per **monstro** ’s link, the woman in question has no uterus or ovaries. In her case, her X chromosome is broken, does not work. So i suppose you could say it’s a non functional piece of human genetics in her along for the ride? Due to it being broken, her body naturally followed the female, at least as far as it could with that broken bit of genetic material. (I am not sure why it prevented the upper female parts from developing? Not exactly sure how it works) But anyways, since she was born that way, came out the door with a vagina, no testicles, i guess i would call her a girl with an unfortunate birth defect that will prevent her from having kids? No one cut her, or modified her, or fed her bottled chemicals At least based on the info in the link. I guess i would consider it the same as if i had the gene for brown eyes, but mine was defective and so i would up with blue eyes. The plans say install brown eyes, the brown kit was broken and couldnt be installed, so i have blue eyes? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/128 "2017-02-17T03:03:26Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > In her case, her X chromosome is broken, does not work. In the first place, although IANA geneticist, AFAICT it is not always true that androgen insensitivity syndrome is caused by an androgen-receptor gene mutation on the X chromosome. I do not know any details of the etiology of AIS in Ms. Khumalo’s case. In the second place, even if her AIS is caused by an androgen receptor mutation, it sounds to me like a _hell_ of a stretch to go from that to “her X chromosome does not work”. AFAIK, the X chromosome carries about 800-900 genes, which are pretty important for a variety of purposes. Hers seems to have worked fine in all respects except reproductive fertility. [QUOTE=Weisshund] (I am not sure why it prevented the upper female parts from developing? [/quote] I can’t tell if by “upper female parts” you mean the breasts (which wouldn’t really make sense in Ms. Khumalo’s case, since hers seem to have developed plenty) or the internal reproductive organs (in which case, I believe the answer is that the presence of the Y chromosome results in the production of undescended testes instead of a uterus and ovaries). [QUOTE=Weisshund] Not exactly sure how it works) [/quote] I noticed. [QUOTE=Weisshund] But anyways, since she was born that way, came out the door with a vagina, no testicles, i guess i would call her a girl with an unfortunate birth defect that will prevent her from having kids? [/quote] In the first place, though I don’t know anything about the specifics of Ms. Khumalo’s internal anatomy, it would seem that as an XY person with AIS she probably **does** have testicles, internally. In the second place, why should anyone give a shit what _you_ “would call her”? The point is that she calls _herself_ an intersex woman, and because that’s how she identifies, that’s how it’s appropriate for other people to identify her. [QUOTE=Weisshund] No one cut her, or modified her, or fed her bottled chemicals [/quote] So what? Why should any such issues override the determining factor of how **she** chooses to identify herself? [QUOTE=Weisshund] I guess i would consider it the same as if i had the gene for brown eyes, but mine was defective and so i would up with blue eyes. [/quote] The point is, what does it matter how your eyes got blue, genetically speaking? You look like, and present as, a person with blue eyes, so it’s appropriate to describe you as a blue-eyed person. If you didn’t feel comfortable having blue eyes, for whatever reason, and preferred to wear colored contacts to make them look brown, it would be appropriate to describe you as a brown-eyed person. If some situation happened to arise where it was important to know the original color and/or the genetically-determined color of your eyes, that could be handled on a case-by-case basis. But in the ordinary circumstances of everyday life, nobody needs to go scrabbling at your corneas or running tests on your DNA in order to find out what color your eyes “really” are. Same with gender. If somebody identifies as a woman and presents as a woman, nobody needs to go groping in her underwear or demanding her birth certificate or a DNA test in order to justify identifying her as a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/129 "2017-02-17T03:26:24Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > its not an obsession, but its a major flash point in the left’s effort to make all people who are part of a majority or advantaged group, such as whites, (cis)males, feel guilty, An illogical argument. If people are trying to persuade others to support trans rights, then by definition they’re trying to get them to speak and act in such a way so as \*not \*to feel guilty. That’s the point; if the guilt comes from “Not treating people respectfully”, then the people trying to eliminate that disrespect are all in favour of lessening the guilt as much as possible. In an ideal world, there would be no such guilt. Actually, your position, which seeks to lay blame at the hands of left, and taking every opportunity to be very disrespectful towards trans people and their supporters, requires and encourages guilt. As a white cis-male myself, I don’t think your efforts to try and get me to feel guilty will work, but I don’t appreciate it, all the same. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/130 "2017-02-17T03:28:15Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Maybe he’s scared to death he’ll pick up a woman for a date and she will turn out to have been “assigned male at birth”. At which point arguably it would be affecting him. > > Of course, that can probably be avoided by not picking up complete strangers (get to know folks first, then get intimate) and making it clear on dating sites that transwomen do not appeal to him. I can’t imagine he’d be very appealing to them, either. On point one: That seems to be almost a phobia for a lot of straight men. That is, a very real fear that when recognized can often result in violence. Lots of violence. On point two: I’m not sure where the burden should lie. Got tits? Check. Looks like girl? Check. Wasn’t a male at anytime prior? Ummm. – Dating from a trans(not a slur?) Perspective sounds dangerous as fuck. At least for the transfemale. Is there a generally accepted procedure in the community to address that? I’ve no perspective on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/131 "2017-02-17T04:27:42Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > Is there a generally accepted procedure in the community to address that? ISTM that the best and most effective “procedure to address that” is on the rest of the world, and it looks like this: **Rest of the world:** Recognize that a statistically rare subset of women have penises, or once had penises, and that most of the time nothing about this fact is a damn bit of anybody else’s business. **Straight men in particular:** Recognize that being attracted to a transgender woman does not make you, or any other straight man, gay. (Not that there would be anything wrong with it if you **were** gay, or that it would be anybody else’s business. Tbh the overwhelming majority of people in the world don’t care in the least whom you want to fuck, anyway.) **Straight men in particular:** Recognize that no longer being attracted to a transgender woman once you know she has/had a penis does not make you, or any other straight man, a jerk, _as long as you don’t act like a jerk to her about it. In particular, **NO VIOLENCE** _. **Straight men in particular:** Recognize that **continuing** to be attracted to a transgender woman once you know she has/had a penis **still** does not make you, or any other straight man, gay. **Rest of the world:** What did I just say about none of this being a damn bit of anybody else’s business? There, done and dusted. The sooner we all just grow up and stop making a fuss over a perfectly natural and normal—not common, but normal—aspect of human physical diversity, the less trauma there’s going to be for everybody in future. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/132 "2017-02-17T04:40:58Z")
> [@](#): > > No one cut her, or modified her, or fed her bottled chemicals There’s a shorter, pithier phrase for this: “medical treatment.” Or do you also scorn diabetics who inject “bottled chemicals,” aka insulin? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/133 "2017-02-17T05:29:26Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > so ive been reading old threads on this and related topics here on the dope. alot of good info. thanks again **Una Persson** and others, youve been more patient than i would have been! > > mc Thank you very much for saying that. > [@Gyrate](#): > > The way some of these conversations go, I’m surprised **Una** hasn’t hunted down and murdered someone yet. > > _Or has she?_ Given that I think many of the frequent “bad apples” on the SDMB are just sockpuppets of 2 or 3 sad man-babies, I can’t get that upset. I do get frustrated that the same topics get addressed repeatedly as if they’d never been discussed. I mean always starting every conversation from Square 1 is really what’s disheartening. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/134 "2017-02-17T05:32:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > ISTM that the best and most effective “procedure to address that” is on the rest of the world, and it looks like this: > > **Rest of the world:** Recognize that a statistically rare subset of women have penises, or once had penises, and that most of the time nothing about this fact is a damn bit of anybody else’s business. > > **Straight men in particular:** Recognize that being attracted to a transgender woman does not make you, or any other straight man, gay. (Not that there would be anything wrong with it if you **were** gay, or that it would be anybody else’s business. Tbh the overwhelming majority of people in the world don’t care in the least whom you want to fuck, anyway.) > > **Straight men in particular:** Recognize that no longer being attracted to a transgender woman once you know she has/had a penis does not make you, or any other straight man, a jerk, _as long as you don’t act like a jerk to her about it. In particular, **NO VIOLENCE** _. > > **Straight men in particular:** Recognize that **continuing** to be attracted to a transgender woman once you know she has/had a penis **still** does not make you, or any other straight man, gay. > > **Rest of the world:** What did I just say about none of this being a damn bit of anybody else’s business? > > There, done and dusted. The sooner we all just grow up and stop making a fuss over a perfectly natural and normal—not common, but normal—aspect of human physical diversity, the less trauma there’s going to be for everybody in future. _(standing ovation)_ nice! mc ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/135 "2017-02-17T05:39:47Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > Dating from a trans(not a slur?) Perspective sounds dangerous as fuck. At least for the transfemale. Is there a generally accepted procedure in the community to address that? I’ve no perspective on this issue. My community seems more split on this than ever before. My viewpoint is and always has been “err on the side of caution” and inform your prospective date as early as possible. In all the dates that all the transgals I know have been on, NO cisgender male has stayed in the relationship after a revelation after not knowing from the start. Whereas I know of many relationships between cisgender males and transgender women where both went into the relationship fully informed. So it seems to me one may as well inform early. Others feel the opposite, that you are under no obligation to tell anyone at any time. I feel this is incredibly unwise, and very likely to lead to violence. I do not, however, feel there is a “moral imperative” to inform without having been asked. Only an imperative from the standpoint of not being beaten into a pulp, or worse, by an angry male. (Women who are “surprised” by transmen who are stealth almost never have a violent reaction. I’ve never heard of an instance locally, but I’m sure that it has happened.) ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/136 "2017-02-17T06:19:35Z")
But also, if you’re involved with a guy who if he knew the truth would react badly and/or violently, it’s got to be soul shredding. Going through life thinking that if the people you care about knew the truth about you they’d despise you is no way to live. It’s not what you owe them, it’s what you owe yourself. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/137 "2017-02-17T10:16:02Z")
There is one only being who “assigns gender”: his name is almighty God with his tremendous grace. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/138 "2017-02-17T10:28:17Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > There is one only being who “assigns gender”: his name is almighty God with his tremendous grace. …who also makes transsexuals the way they are. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/139 "2017-02-17T10:59:08Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > There is one only being who “assigns gender”: his name is almighty God with his tremendous grace. Not _my_ God, who has more capitals than your God. “Gender” is a shorthand for a certain type of social prejudice so, unless one believes that God ordains each individual creature’s prejudices (which I do not), it is not Him who assigns that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777/140 "2017-02-17T12:54:37Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > There is one only being who “assigns gender”: his name is almighty God with his tremendous grace. Cite, please. I’ll note that this is no different than arguments against homosexuality, or interracial marriage, that were based on nothing more than supposedly divine authority. Those arguments were bunk then and they’re bunk now, and contribute nothing to this discussion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transsexuals-and-the-gender-assigned-at-birth-phrase/779777.md?page=8)