# Transubstatiation - Are Catholics the most science hating people on Earth? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2006, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195 "2006-12-22T07:56:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ammonius\_Saccus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Ammonius\_Saccus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ammonius_Saccus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/1 "2006-12-22T07:56:54Z")
From a Catholic Apologist: > [@](#): > > The accidents, those aspects of the Eucharist that are not essential to it (the appearances, the weight, taste, natural effects), do not change. Only the very essence of the bread and wine changes. The change that takes place cannot be physically measured or seen. The Eucharist requires the same faith from us that it required of the disciples. > > Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P. Do you want to buy a tree I turned into gold? No, none of the accidents changed, but it is really gold. These people are scum. They argue against the most concepts of science and the use of evidence. Catholics deny reality. They will is a fantasy world. Catholic = liar and/or delusional freak. > **[Catholic Faith, Beliefs, & Prayers | Catholic Answers](https://www.catholic.com)** > > Explore the Largest Catholic Database: Beliefs, Practices, Articles, Books, Videos. ---
**Author:** ![Ammonius\_Saccus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Ammonius\_Saccus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ammonius_Saccus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/2 "2006-12-22T07:58:05Z")
They will is a fantasy world. Catholic = liar and/or delusional freak. Should read: Their world is a fantasy world. Catholic = liar and/or delusional freak. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/3 "2006-12-22T08:03:39Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** “These people are scum.” “Their world is a fantasy world. Catholic = liar and/or delusional freak.” :dubious: I’m gonna transubstantiate this “Great Debate” into a Pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/4 "2006-12-22T08:06:13Z")
Heh. Good luck with the complete devastation about to follow. ---
**Author:** ![if6was9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@if6was9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/if6was9)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/5 "2006-12-22T08:09:15Z")
Is \*\* Ammonius Saccus\*\* the most religion hating person on Earth? Or just a one-trick pony? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/6 "2006-12-22T08:10:43Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] These people are scum. They argue against the most concepts of science and the use of evidence. [/QUOTE] Aside from really having a bug up your backside on the Catholic notion of the Eucharist, you are sadly displaying a serious lack of knowledge regarding the philosophical underpinnings of the concept of transubstantiation and a genuine ignorance of Catholic consideration of science. Now, I am not a big defender of transubstantiation (as it requires me to wear my Aristotelian hat, which always sits lopsided on my head), but if one is going to argue against it, it behooves one to understand the differences between Aristotelian metaphysics and epistemology and current science (or even Aristotelian physics). We’ll see how this goes, but if you can’t demonstrate a bit better grasp of your subject matter, I’m moving your rant to the **Pit**. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/7 "2006-12-22T08:13:47Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] We’ll see how this goes, but if you can’t demonstrate a bit better grasp of your subject matter, I’m moving your rant to the **Pit**. [/QUOTE] Erm… Right! If you don’t shape up, we’re moving you down to the _Ninth Circle_ of the Pit! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/8 "2006-12-22T08:14:02Z")
Now, I sadly confess to being one of your hated papists, **A S**. But I will point out that this thread was actually moved (while I composed my response) by my fellow Moderator who, as it happens, is himself an atheist who has expressed certain (better informed) criticisms of religion and religious belief on several occasions. ---
**Author:** ![Ammonius\_Saccus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Ammonius\_Saccus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ammonius_Saccus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/9 "2006-12-22T08:18:50Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Now, I sadly confess to being one of your hated papists, **A S**. But I will point out that this thread was actually moved (while I composed my response) by my fellow Moderator who, as it happens, is himself an atheist who has expressed certain (better informed) criticisms of religion and religious belief on several occasions. [/QUOTE] I would love to hear your defense of this bullshit. > [@](#): > > Now, I am not a big defender of transubstantiation (as it requires me to wear my Aristotelian hat, which always sits lopsided on my head), but if one is going to argue against it, it behooves one to understand the differences between Aristotelian metaphysics and epistemology and current science (or even Aristotelian physics). Aristotelian metaphysics are unscientific crap. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/10 "2006-12-22T08:19:16Z")
So, which one of you moved it to the Pit? Or is there some as-yet unrevealed mod with whom you two did it, making it an act of a Trinity? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/11 "2006-12-22T08:22:51Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] They will is a fantasy world. Catholic = liar and/or delusional freak. Should read: Their world is a fantasy world. Catholic = liar and/or delusional freak. [/QUOTE] Fuckwit. ---
**Author:** ![Ammonius\_Saccus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Ammonius\_Saccus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ammonius_Saccus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/12 "2006-12-22T08:26:39Z")
[QUOTE=Oakminster] Fuckwit. [/QUOTE] I get it. Fuckwit is only the accidents of your repsonse. The substance was intelligent. Fuckwit. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/13 "2006-12-22T08:30:18Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] So, which one of you moved it to the Pit? [/QUOTE] Mike did. As one of the hated papists, I did not want to move it in a manner that would be considered prejudicial to the “discussion” until it had leaped off the rails. Mike could be more objective. [QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] I would love to hear your defense of this bullshit. Aristotelian metaphysics are unscientific crap. [/QUOTE] Since you appear to measure all things by (what is, I suspect, your rather limited view of) science, I see no reason to waste my time. Aristotelian metaphysics are clearly not science. The RCC does not claim that it is a scientific explanation (and under Aristotelian metaphysics, the _accidents_ should appear to every scientific test as bread and wine–that is the whole point of distinguishing substance from accident). Go read a text on philosophy: I recommend Stumpf’s From Socrates to Sartre as a decent layman’s primer. ---
**Author:** ![Ammonius\_Saccus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Ammonius\_Saccus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ammonius_Saccus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/14 "2006-12-22T08:30:33Z")
I would to see anyone defend transubstatiation as anything more than unsubstaniated metaphysical bullshit. Can you present any evidence to support that transubstatiation is real? ---
**Author:** ![if6was9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@if6was9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/if6was9)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/15 "2006-12-22T08:31:33Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] (as it requires me to wear my Aristotelian hat, which always sits lopsided on my head) [/QUOTE] But it looks jaunty that way. Quite striking. [QUOTE=kaylasdad99] So, which one of you moved it to the Pit? Or is there some as-yet unrevealed mod with whom you two did it, making it an act of a Trinity? [/QUOTE] It transubstantiated here. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/16 "2006-12-22T08:31:57Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] I get it. Fuckwit is only the accidents of your repsonse. The substance was intelligent. Fuckwit. [/QUOTE] Actually, that accidents-substance thing was quite clever of you. Tho Oakminster’s assessment of you stands. ---
**Author:** ![Ammonius\_Saccus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Ammonius\_Saccus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ammonius_Saccus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/17 "2006-12-22T08:33:02Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Aristotelian metaphysics are clearly not science. The RCC does not claim that it is a scientific explanation (and under Aristotelian metaphysics, the _accidents_ should appear to every scientific test as bread and wine–that is the whole point of distinguishing substance from accident). [/QUOTE] Can you present any valid evidence that the “substance” actually changes? Any at all? Do you believe in ID as well? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/18 "2006-12-22T08:33:23Z")
Sorry. The title is just Socrates to Sartre, no “From.” ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/19 "2006-12-22T08:34:32Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] I get it. Fuckwit is only the accidents of your repsonse. The substance was intelligent. Fuckwit. [/QUOTE] In the unlikely event the infinite monkeys banging around in the vast open spaces of your cranium manage to fling some bit of poo worthy of a thoughtful response into one of your posts, you’ll get such a response. To date, I have yet to see you post anything worthy of being used to wipe the ass of a diseased camel. ---
**Author:** ![Ammonius\_Saccus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Ammonius\_Saccus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ammonius_Saccus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/20 "2006-12-22T08:36:44Z")
Is it this book: > **[Socrates to Sartre and Beyond: A... by Stumpf, Samuel Enoch](https://www.amazon.com/Socrates-Sartre-Beyond-Philosophy-PowerWeb/dp/0072878290)** > > Socrates to Sartre and Beyond: A... by Stumpf, Samuel Enoch [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195.md?page=2)