# Transubstatiation - Are Catholics the most science hating people on Earth? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2006, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195 "2006-12-22T07:56:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ammonius\_Saccus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Ammonius\_Saccus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ammonius_Saccus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/41 "2006-12-22T09:30:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Now even if metaphysics was a completely useless passtime, you have provided no evidence that people who engage in metaphysical speculation actually oppose science or even that they “argue against” science. Can you reconcile metaphyics and science? At best metaphysical arguments violate Occam’s razor. They are not scientific and argue for a very different world view. ---
**Author:** ![Ammonius\_Saccus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Ammonius\_Saccus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ammonius_Saccus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/42 "2006-12-22T09:32:00Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] And there’s someone holding a gun to your head and threatening to shoot if you don’t also accept that the wafer is the body of God? What is the precise nature of the problem here? [/QUOTE] The problem is that some people want to hold up unjusitified beliefs as justified. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/43 "2006-12-22T09:37:00Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] They are not scientific and argue for a very different world view. [/QUOTE] They do not argue for a different world view, they depend upon it. And since that world view is considered in parallel with the scientific world view, not in conflict with it, you seem to be getting very upset over something that is not harming either you or its adherents. ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/44 "2006-12-22T09:38:36Z")
> [@Ammonius Saccus](#): > > At best metaphysical arguments violate Occam’s razor. Didn’t you know? William of Ockham hated science! He was among the most science-hating people on earth! (Fransiscan Order.) ---
**Author:** ![Ammonius\_Saccus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Ammonius\_Saccus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ammonius_Saccus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/45 "2006-12-22T09:39:16Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] They do not argue for a different world view, they depend upon it. And since that world view is considered in parallel with the scientific world view, not in conflict with it, you seem to be getting very upset over something that is not harming either you or its adherents. [/QUOTE] That world view makes a scientific claim. That the waiver actully changed into the flesh of God. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/46 "2006-12-22T09:42:13Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] The problem is that some people want to hold up unjusitified beliefs as justified. [/QUOTE] Hold up? Again, at gunpoint? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/47 "2006-12-22T09:44:39Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] That world view makes a scientific claim. That the waiver actully changed into the flesh of God. [/QUOTE] As I noted earlier, you have no idea what you are talking about. From the (Aristotelian/Scholastic) perspective, the accidents of the host is wheat and water baked (in the West) without leavening while the contents of the cup are wine, unfortified. This exactly satisfies the requirements of science and is not contradicted by any church doctirne. There is no “scientific” claim that the host become’s God’s flesh and your repetittion of that claim in multiple threads merely demonstrates that you have failed to even make an attempt to understand the declaration of the church. In logical circles, that is known as a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Ammonius\_Saccus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Ammonius\_Saccus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ammonius_Saccus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/48 "2006-12-22T09:49:02Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] As I noted earlier, you have no idea what you are talking about. From the (Aristotelian/Scholastic) perspective, the accidents of the host is wheat and water baked (in the West) without leavening while the contents of the cup are wine, unfortified. This exactly satisfies the requirements of science and is not contradicted by any church doctirne. [/QUOTE] The very idea that there is a “substance” beyond the “accidents” violates Occam’s razor. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/49 "2006-12-22T09:51:28Z")
No it does not. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/50 "2006-12-22T09:52:42Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] Would you fly in a plane build on metaphysical prinicples? How about scientific principles? [/QUOTE] Happily, one needn’t make that choice, as plane-building is not in the bailiwick of metaphysics. I wouldn’t want to fly in a plane whose construction was based on the priniciples of legal philosophy, either; that doesn’t mean that legal philosophy is of no value. Essentially what you’re doing is accusing a philosophical system which does not claim to be science of not being science. Now, I’m not a Catholic either, but surely you can see that there’s nothing terribly unusual, or peculiar to the Catholics, in holding a religious belief about matters of religion. To be sure, there’s nothing scientific about thinking that a wafer has been converted into the body of Christ while retaining its physical properties; but, since science only deals with physical properties, which the Church agrees remain the same, there’s nothing _anti_scientific about this either. Science will tell you that the wafer has not changed its mass, specific gravity, temperature, etc., and the Church will agree, even as it argues that the wafer is now the body of Christ. This is as opposed to the case where science asserts that evolution has taken place, and certain other churches assert that it has not. There, we are dealing with a statement that _contradicts_ science. I don’t believe that the wafer is Christ, not because I see that as being unscientific, but because I am not Catholic and do not agree with Catholic religious doctrines. Conversely, I don’t believe in ID, not because I’m not a member of a church that believes it, but because I see it as being unscientific. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/51 "2006-12-22T09:52:52Z")
(And if it did, that would do nothing to make the claim wrong. It would merely indicate that Occam’s razor is not the sole measure of all things.) ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/52 "2006-12-22T09:54:06Z")
> [@Ammonius Saccus](#): > > That world view makes a scientific claim. That the waiver actully changed into the flesh of God. I just brushed up on my Transubstantiation theology with a quick trip over to the [Wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation) on the subject. I disagree with your claim that the doctrine’s claim is a scientific claim. It claims (so says the wiki authors) that the _substance_ of the wafer changes into the body of Christ, but that the _accidents_ of the wafer remain unchanged. “_Substance_” here is used as a term of art. The _substance_ of an object (or person or whatever) is what that thing is in of itself, without regard to how it looks, feels, tastes, sounds, or smells like. It’s the thing’s essential nature, on a more basic level even than molecular structure. “_Accidents_” is also a term of art. The _accidents_ of an object are those properties of the object that can be determined by the senses. Things such as smell and appearance, yes, but presumably also things such as molecular structure. (I doubt molecular microscopes were in wide use when this theology was developed.) The doctrine claims that the _substance_ changes, but not the _accidents_. I fail to see how this is a scientific claim, as there’s no experiment I know of that could detect this change in _substance_, or predict its effects. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/53 "2006-12-22T09:55:36Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] The very idea that there is a “substance” beyond the “accidents” violates Occam’s razor. [/QUOTE] You can’t “violate” Occam’s razor; it’s a guideline, not an axiom. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/54 "2006-12-22T10:00:20Z")
And it isn’t even Ockham’s. No one knows who came up with it. ---
**Author:** ![Ammonius\_Saccus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Ammonius\_Saccus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ammonius_Saccus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/55 "2006-12-22T10:17:26Z")
[QUOTE=aclubs] The doctrine claims that the _substance_ changes, but not the _accidents_. I fail to see how this is a scientific claim, as there’s no experiment I know of that could detect this change in _substance_, or predict its effects. [/QUOTE] It makes the claim that there actually is a substance beyond the accidents. ---
**Author:** ![Ammonius\_Saccus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Ammonius\_Saccus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ammonius_Saccus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/56 "2006-12-22T10:18:29Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] And it isn’t even Ockham’s. No one knows who came up with it. [/QUOTE] What a petty little bitch. ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/57 "2006-12-22T10:20:03Z")
> [@Ammonius Saccus](#): > > It makes the claim that there actually is a substance beyond the accidents. …which seems to me to be an unscientific claim. ---
**Author:** ![Ammonius\_Saccus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Ammonius\_Saccus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ammonius_Saccus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/58 "2006-12-22T10:23:41Z")
Not only un, but also anti. ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/59 "2006-12-22T10:27:52Z")
By all means, I want to know how to design an experiment that would demonstrate the nature of an object beyond that which can be observed about it. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/60 "2006-12-22T10:32:42Z")
I don’t see how it’s any more antiscientific than the claim that there’s a “national frontier” fifty klicks south of here, that billions believe to exist but that cannot be detected by geologists. :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195.md?page=4)