# Transubstatiation - Are Catholics the most science hating people on Earth? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2006, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195 "2006-12-22T07:56:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Firebringer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f04885/32.png) [@Firebringer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Firebringer)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/61 "2006-12-22T10:32:43Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] What a petty little bitch. [/QUOTE] Laugh. Pretty rich coming from a Troll. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/62 "2006-12-22T10:42:38Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] What a petty little bitch. [/QUOTE] What a convenient way to ignore **matt\_mcl** ’s post #53. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/63 "2006-12-22T12:53:21Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] Can you reconcile metaphyics and science? [/QUOTE] Why on earth would I want to? I’m both a poet and programmer. I do both well and both give me pleasure although the latter pays significantly better. Both have given pleasure to others, although the latter also earns them money. I could, strictly speaking, operate in non-metaphysical world. I could also do without the pleasures of good friends, good food, and good music, all of which, as far as I’m concerned, are far more rooted in metaphysics than science. If I believe the processed, cardboard-like thing I eat on my knees on Sunday somehow metaphysically becomes something greater, that does not in the least affect my ability to write clean, concise code today. Knowing the scientific mechanisms between the sunsets I see or the intricate results of evolution enhances my metaphysical joy and wonder at their existence and increases my desire to know more about the science behind how they came about. Should I drop my love of and indulgence in metaphysical things? Perhaps, but for me, it would be like dropping my love of music, chocolate, or good friends. While it might provide some material benefits, the loss to me would be far greater than anything material could make up for. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/64 "2006-12-22T13:22:50Z")
[QUOTE=Siege] Why on earth would I want to? I’m both a poet and programmer. I do both well and both give me pleasure although the latter pays significantly better. Both have given pleasure to others, although the latter also earns them money. I could, strictly speaking, operate in non-metaphysical world. I could also do without the pleasures of good friends, good food, and good music, all of which, as far as I’m concerned, are far more rooted in metaphysics than science. If I believe the processed, cardboard-like thing I eat on my knees on Sunday somehow metaphysically becomes something greater, that does not in the least affect my ability to write clean, concise code today. Knowing the scientific mechanisms between the sunsets I see or the intricate results of evolution enhances my metaphysical joy and wonder at their existence and increases my desire to know more about the science behind how they came about. Should I drop my love of and indulgence in metaphysical things? Perhaps, but for me, it would be like dropping my love of music, chocolate, or good friends. While it might provide some material benefits, the loss to me would be far greater than anything material could make up for. [/QUOTE] But you’re capable of love. Of friends, art, nature, science & good food. (And I doubt that’s the entire list.) You aren’t a bitter, dried up creature with a defective brain, no heart & no soul. Yes, I realize that the creature actually has a heart beating in Its chest. And that Its “soul” could not be weighed, even if It possessed one. But _you_ know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/65 "2006-12-22T13:23:07Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] And it isn’t even Ockham’s. No one knows who came up with it. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] What a petty little bitch. [/QUOTE] **Liberal** , you might want to jot down this date, because it’s the day I came to your defense – not that you ever needed anybody to do that. **Ammonius** , you might want to glance at the motto at the top of the webpage. Yep, fighting ignorance is our cause here. Sometimes we stumble, God knows we bicker amongst ourselves, but we try to keep our eyes on the prize of disseminating knowledge. **Liberal** has done so here, with a little tidbit that makes me want to research the origins of that principle we so often refer to here as “Occam’s Razor”. We’ve all called **Liberal** a bitch at some point, but that was usually after pages of densely argued debate. Your reply is just pathetic. Look, we’ve had worse cases than you, and some of them have turned around. Good luck (honestly). ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/66 "2006-12-22T13:26:14Z")
Jotting… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/67 "2006-12-22T13:38:50Z")
[QUOTE=Oakminster] In the unlikely event the infinite monkeys banging around in the vast open spaces of your cranium manage to fling some bit of poo worthy of a thoughtful response into one of your posts, you’ll get such a response. To date, I have yet to see you post anything worthy of being used to wipe the ass of a diseased camel. [/QUOTE] I want to bear your child. See, this is what I like about the Dope. Even in a thread posted by a drunken troll, we get stuff like the above. I’m all starry-eyed. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/68 "2006-12-22T13:49:54Z")
Ammonius… WAKE UP! He He. I love fucking with hung-over trolls. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/69 "2006-12-22T14:06:52Z")
Sorry to Hijack, but Hello Liberal! Welcome back? (Sorry, first thread I’ve seen you in in like a year or something) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/70 "2006-12-22T14:11:16Z")
Six months, twelve days, eight hours, and thirty-two minutes. Roughly. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/71 "2006-12-22T14:13:12Z")
It is necessary that **Liberal** be here. It is not necessary that **Liberal** not be here. Therefore **Liberal** is here. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/72 "2006-12-22T14:28:54Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] It is necessary that **Liberal** be here. It is not necessary that **Liberal** not be here. Therefore **Liberal** is here. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Are you trying to say ~~L -\> E(L)A{x,h}; A(L); E{x,h} -\> L(x) v L(h); ~L(h); L(x) -\> ~L(~x); ~L~x; Lx; Lx; {L(x); ~L(x)} v {L(x), L}; x; L; therefore, L? ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/73 "2006-12-22T14:40:33Z")
May I ask why you’re picking on Catholics, specifically? I’m no fan of the Roman Catholic church (I’d be hard pressed to think of a single church that I _am_ a fan of), but they’re neither the only nor the worst offenders when it comes to science. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/74 "2006-12-22T14:45:53Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Are you trying to say ~~L -\> E(L)A{x,h}; A(L); E{x,h} -\> L(x) v L(h); ~L(h); L(x) -\> ~L(~x); ~L~x; Lx; Lx; {L(x); ~L(x)} v {L(x), L}; x; L; therefore, L? [/QUOTE] Yeah, but with more of a Southern accent. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/75 "2006-12-22T15:01:36Z")
All the ad hominem in this thread is making baby Jesus cry… ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/76 "2006-12-22T15:05:14Z")
I just wanted to add my “Welcome back!” to **Liberal**. You’re among the friends whose company I foolishly, metaphysically enjoy. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/77 "2006-12-22T15:05:58Z")
[QUOTE=FordPrefect] All the ad hominem in this thread is making baby Jesus cry… [/QUOTE] Hey! The OP wanted a Pitting, he got a Pitting. I’m sure that we can all agree to drop all the logical fallacies if he is capable of eliminating the fallacies in his arguments. 😛 (And I suspect that Baby Jesus is made of sterner stuff than to get upset over this foolishness.) ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/78 "2006-12-22T15:06:37Z")
[QUOTE=Siege] Why on earth would I want to? I’m both a poet and programmer. I do both well and both give me pleasure although the latter pays significantly better… [/QUOTE] As one who is both as well, that that was a brilliant corollary in explaining the difference and orthogonality of science and metaphysics. They are not opposing forces but quite simply tools for explaining phenomena which the other cannot. IANA Catholic either, but attempting to refute transubstantiation with science is akin to refuting that people have souls on scientific grounds. Sure, there are parts of those that are measurable scientifically (are their physical/energy properties different, etc.), but the essence of the claims are purely religious. Science is unable to prove or disprove either claim precisely because there is a lack of scientific evidence both for AND against. As is often said, non-existence of evidence is not evidence of non-existence. So to answer your question, “why should anyone believe it?” I ask you, why should anyone not believe it? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/79 "2006-12-22T15:11:22Z")
I honestly don’t know who’s stupider. The OP or the people still feeding the stupid cunt. It’s a troll. Nothing more nothing less. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195/80 "2006-12-22T15:18:50Z")
[QUOTE=Blaster Master] So to answer your question, “why should anyone believe it?” I ask you, why should anyone not believe it? [/QUOTE] Actually, I think the question is, why does the OP care? He’s clearly not Catholic, and belief in transubstantiation doesn’t effect any aspect of his life. This is like the third thread he’s started on the subject. Why is this such a big deal to you, **Ammonius**? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transubstatiation-are-catholics-the-most-science-hating-people-on-earth/385195.md?page=5)