# Transvestism in a Unisex World **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 29, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149 "2004-12-29T20:53:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/21 "2004-12-31T14:41:08Z")
> [@Jomo Mojo](#): > > There needs to be a distinction understood between men crossdressers and transgendered M-to-F women. The former are men who, for whatever reason, like to wear women’s clothes, but still identify with the man gender. The latter (myself included), identify as women. For a transwoman to wear women’s clothes is therefore not crossdressing, but simply being conformable with one’s true gender. It is the former that I am curious about. Both in real life and here, I’ve learned much about transgenderism (please understand that I’m using that as a portmanteau word to cover the entire spectrum of gender identity vs. birth sex.) I also understand the difference between sex and gender - that’s one of those things that made absolutely perfect sense to me the first time I learned about it. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/22 "2004-12-31T14:48:32Z")
Thanks, **LifeOnWry**! There’s hope at the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/23 "2004-12-31T17:16:09Z")
> [@LifeOnWry](#): > > Maybe because I am hyper-interested in the subject, I have noticed that transvestism is one of those things people just don’t talk about. I’ve seen countless threads here on the SDMB about assorted sexual subjects and gender issues, but to the best of my knowledge no one has talked about being a transvestite. I’m not calling for anyone to out themselves, but I am curious as to why no one has. There seems to be an element of shame in this that has been overcome where other sexual identity issues are concerned. To me, transvestism DOES seem to be unique in that regard. Well, what kind of crossdressing are you talking about? I’m an occasional small-time drag performer myself and have posted photos probably more times than other people were really interested in. I don’t think I’ve ever linked to any photos of myself that _weren’t_ in drag. But I do not crossdress in my ordinary life. Doesn’t do anything for me. Are you specifically interested in people who are crossdressing because it gives them a sexual thrill? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/24 "2004-12-31T17:30:45Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I’m aware that language grows and changes. But, if fetish loses its proper meaning then we’ll only be left with paraphilia. It’s just not as much fun to say paraphilia. Are you kidding?! Then we get to call whatever it is the person pervs on, their paraphilia paraphernalia. How great is that? > [@](#): > > KellyM, umop ap!sdn, matt\_mcl, you are well informed on these topics. Does it seem to you that the word “transvestite” is now going out of use? I think it would make for clearer distinctions if we dropped this word. “Crossdresser” would remain for masculine-gendered men, while transwomen need to be recognized as women in gender. Yeah, it seems to me that “transvestite” is dropping out of use, mostly because nobody is sure what it means when applied a given person: whether they’re a transvestic fetishist/kink lover, a crossdresser, or an actual trans person. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/25 "2004-12-31T17:36:26Z")
I can distinguish three kinds of male crossdressers: 1. Drag queens—gay guys who dress up for entertainment value; 2. Straight entertainers who do it for comedy like Dame Edna, Flip Wilson’s Geraldine, or Robin Williams in _Mrs. Doubtfire_; and 3. Straights who do it for kicks (whether erotic, aesthetic, or some undefined reason, it just pleases them). Transgender is a completely separate identity from the above. There are many stories of transgendered and transsexual women who at first thought they were straight guys who just liked women’s clothing — but then got better self-knowledge and realized that they weren’t crossdressing men, they _really are women._ This understanding makes all the difference in knowing who you are, and has a major impact on the course of one’s life. It’s a big, important difference. **Lamia** , I’m sorry, I don’t know if you’re gay or not. If not, and you don’t fit into one of the three categories above, maybe there should be a fourth category, heterosexual drag queen? Speaking as a transwoman, if I wear man’s clothing it does not affect who I am inside. I have to wear man’s clothing as a disguise for protection from the cruel world, but in my own inner self-actualization I’m a woman. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/26 "2004-12-31T17:45:41Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Are you specifically interested in people who are crossdressing because it gives them a sexual thrill? Putting it precisely that way makes this seem like it’s about MY sexual thrills (well, I suppose in a way it feeds something voyeuristic in me, but let me assure everyone that I’m trying NOT to be prurient here.) But, since I understand drag to be a performance medium rather than an identity thing, and transgenderism to be an issue of genes vs. societal expectations, what’s left? So if “crossdressing for a sexual thrill” is the only other category, then yes, that is what I want to learn more about. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/27 "2005-01-01T00:08:33Z")
> [@Jomo Mojo](#): > > **Lamia** , I’m sorry, I don’t know if you’re gay or not. If not, and you don’t fit into one of the three categories above, maybe there should be a fourth category, heterosexual drag queen? You should be asking if I’m a man or not. 😉 I am a drag _king_. Grand prize “Mr. [location] Pageant” 2001, first-runner up 2002. When I think back on my college years, I feel more pride in these accomplishments than I do in any of the Latin-named ones that got listed under my name in the graduation program! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/28 "2005-01-01T01:32:39Z")
King **Lamia!** My abject apologies, your majesty! I should have figured it out from your name. :smack: “_Rael, welcome, we are the Lamia of the pool We have been waiting for our waters to bring you cool_” Like I said, I have to go around in male “drag” like all the time. Not that it’s fun. In fact, for a transwoman like me it’s oppressive and painful to be denied chances to express my true self. When I finally get to be a woman, it is _not_ drag, it is simply comfort and naturalness, feeling like I’m finally adjusted the right way. Forcing me into a male gender role is the old square peg in a round hole problem. I was just reading a discussion over at the TG boards, and noticed that the more experienced TG and TS participants draw a distinction between “crossdressers” and “transvestites.” I keep learning new things all the time. > [@](#): > > _CDs are men who like to dress in women’s clothes for no apparent reason > TVs are men who like to dress up in women’s clothing to get off_ This breaks down the third category I listed above into two different groups, based on motivation. The discussion also noted how many TS people started out thinking they were “merely” male crossdressers and with greater self-knowledge eventually came to realize they were really the other gender. ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/29 "2005-01-01T03:00:49Z")
> [@Jomo Mojo](#): > > Like I said, I have to go around in male “drag” like all the time. Also known as “drab”. > [@](#): > > CDs are men who like to dress in women’s clothes for no apparent reason > TVs are men who like to dress up in women’s clothing to get off I didn’t know that either. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/30 "2005-01-01T04:40:30Z")
> [@Jomo Mojo](#): > > I can distinguish three kinds of male crossdressers: > > 1. Drag queens—gay guys who dress up for entertainment value; > 2. Straight entertainers who do it for comedy like Dame Edna, Flip Wilson’s Geraldine, or Robin Williams in _Mrs. Doubtfire_; and > 3. Straights who do it for kicks (whether erotic, aesthetic, or some undefined reason, it just pleases them). > > Transgender is a completely separate identity from the above. There are many stories of transgendered and transsexual women who at first thought they were straight guys who just liked women’s clothing — but then got better self-knowledge and realized that they weren’t crossdressing men, they _really are women._ This understanding makes all the difference in knowing who you are, and has a major impact on the course of one’s life. It’s a big, important difference. I can verify this from personal experience. Check the link in my sig for more detail. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/31 "2005-01-01T06:31:02Z")
Right on, **Number Six**! _Sisterhood is powerful_. > [@umop ap!sdn](#): > > Also known as “drab”. Anybody believe the etymology that _drag_ is an acronym from the theater of Shakespeare’s time? **DR** ess **A** s a **G** irl. Well, it makes more sense to me than any other explanation for its origin. Likewise, the light bulb just went on over my head when I read your post: “ **DR** ess **A** s a **B** oy.” Of course! A most apt acronym; it really _is_ drab. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/32 "2005-01-01T17:02:45Z")
Re: “drab” - don’t understand this at all. There are plenty of clothing options for men that are body-conscious, sexy and colorful now. Business suits, and jeans-and-tee-shirt combos are generally not particularly snazzy, but I don’t think I would find “men’s” clothing to be particularly restrictive. Once again, I only have one transvestite to reference, Izzard, who was quoted as saying (and I’m paraphrasing slightly, but this is the gist): “Transvestism is all about the socks. I wear women’s stockings.” He went on to describe the difference by saying that women have the options of patterns and color, whereas men have black socks and white socks - but this isn’t really true, is it? He also said, “There is no male lingerie. There is so much that is sensual about women’s clothing - high heels, low heels, red, black, patterns, push-the-boobs stuff.” I would guess that on average, women’s clothing is bolder and more exaggerated than mens’. It’s more embellished, with lace and embroidery and shaped sleeves and different necklines and hemlengths. Women are free to be more expressive and have more clothing choices than men do (especially now, when most women do wear “traditionally male clothing” like trousers). I personally enjoy dolling up to go out, so I get THAT - what I’m stumbling on here is that I get the feeling transvestism has more to do with “forbidden fruit” type feelings, rather than just looking sexy. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/33 "2005-01-01T17:53:26Z")
> [@Jomo Mojo](#): > > Right on, **Number Six**! _Sisterhood is powerful_. > > Anybody believe the etymology that _drag_ is an acronym from the theater of Shakespeare’s time? > > **DR** ess **A** s a **G** irl. I doubt it; acronyms did not become common until very recently. They were almost unknown before the 20th century. I’m sure the term derives from “drag” meaning “clothing” or “costume”, although I don’t know how that usage of “drag” came about. It seems to be faily old. Could be related to “rags”, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/34 "2005-01-01T19:32:18Z")
Well I dunno what the etymology is but **DR** essed **A** s a **G** irl is the explanation I heard, and was commenting about having heard the term “drab” as an analogous usage substituting “boy”. Men’s clothes may not necessarily be drab but then again women’s clothes aren’t necessarily making contact with the floor either. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/35 "2005-01-01T22:07:51Z")
Yeah, “drag” as an acronym is almost certainly a folk etymology, although “drab” for boydrag is a cute offshoot of it. My understanding is that it is longstanding theatre slang, possibly referring to the way that skirts drag across the floor. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/36 "2005-01-01T23:03:22Z")
What about this, from page 294 of Panati’s Extraordinary Endings Of Practically Everything And Everybody ? > [@](#): > > The ancient Greeks, as mentioned, used castration only to punish rapists, and the offender was called a _spao_, meaning “to draw out” or “drag”, a description of how the testes were removed from the scrotum. Despised in Greek society and denied employment, such men were said to have masqueraded as women- the origin of the slang expression “drag” for a man in a woman’s attire. I think there are some problems with that explanation. But considering all the words that have come down to us from the Greeks and Romans, I can see them being the originators of drag as well. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/37 "2005-01-02T01:49:18Z")
From what I have seen so far (caveat: I’m new to this, so please don’t Pit me if I post something inaccurate), transgendered women are serious about just being women. We have to fight our own fight against ignorance, against being confused with the type of entertainer known as “drag queen.” Drag queens are less about actually emulating women and more about extravaganza. When they start getting really outrageous and screaming in their style, they can sport outfits that no woman actually ever wears. I mean, twelve-inch platform heels??? European drag queens are often known by their Italian name, _travesti_. The English word “travesty” actually comes from the Italian word _travestia_, literally a drag queen show. It has suffered a certain pejoration in meaning, but the derivation is evidence that the practice is centuries old. The ladies of the local transgender society where I live prefer a much more sober, bourgeois style, in their quest to be accepted as real women. Think Liz Claiborne, Ann Taylor, J.C. Penney. When the show is over and the drag queens go home, they go back to being guys. Trans women want to be women full time. (Not a transition I can manage yet, but tonight at the Doper party I went in an approximately unisex style: blue jeans and long-sleeved t-shirt. If I can’t fully manifest as a woman yet, at least I can be androgynous.) ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/38 "2005-01-02T02:29:46Z")
I don’t want anyone to think I’m ignoring the info in this thread, but there’s too many variables about gender identity in here for me to focus - and since I hijacked the hell out of it in the first place, I’m going to apologize to the OP and go start a separate thread to pose my questions more precisely. (I’m still interested in this one, though, so don’t stop on my account!) ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/39 "2005-01-02T03:28:53Z")
I was reading a Justice League Archives book earlier today. Gardener Fox was a wizard at constructing strange, intricate plots, but the man couldn’t write dialog to save his life. Part of the joy of rereading these books is Snappar Carr’s hipster dialog, which sometimes painfully, unintentionally funny. Justice League of America #7: Snapper and his girlfriend are going to a carnival run by malicious aliens. Snapper: Never mind the drag rides, Midge, let’s beat feet to the Fun-House. Now, I can understand why a normal teenage boy would want to avoid the drag rides. Obviously these aliens were intent on taking over the earth by first corrupting the morals of impressionable youth. Snapper thought he was too clever for them, but two panels later, he’s back in their clutches when he gets hit by a beam of light: Snapper: I feel all queer and tingly inside. Hmmm. Maybe he would have enjoyed one of those drag rides after all! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149/40 "2005-01-02T03:49:44Z")
Did you see when Eric Idle from Monty Python was on Saturday Night Live? The “drag race” skit? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transvestism-in-a-unisex-world/282149.md?page=3)