# Travel ban: Oh for two **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2017, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281 "2017-03-16T02:26:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/21 "2017-03-16T14:42:17Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Apologies if this isn’t the right thread, but why do you think Tweety is pushing this travel ban? Is it solely to appeal to his most rabid base, … He promised a “total and complete ban on Muslims”, and his fearful base lapped it up. Now he’s trying to deliver _something_. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/22 "2017-03-16T14:42:35Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Apologies if this isn’t the right thread, but why do you think Tweety is pushing this travel ban? Is it solely to appeal to his most rabid base, to distract them from the fact that they aren’t going to benefit from any policy under him, but to allow them to rant over the danger of terrorists and foreigners? > > Is it a distraction - just to get the media, courts, and public worked up over this one nonissue, while something else gets less attention? > > Or does any legitimate, reasonable source of any political stripe feel this is needed, reasonable, and desirable? > > Don’t get me wrong - I have no objection to some rational immigration reform. But I can’t fathom why he wants to commit so much to this approach. I wonder if it’s just CYA? Imagine someone from one of the countries on the list comes in and yells something about Allah while killing schoolchildren at a bus stop or whatever. Imagine, too, that Trump then stands up and says _“Hey, I declared a ban on all of those people getting in, but the damned left-wing activists interfered – remember that? – so I signed a second ban, trying for an alternative they’d let me protect America with; and they blocked that one, too. I’m out here every day working on new ways to look out for American interests, and the other side spends every day trying to stop me.”_ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/23 "2017-03-16T14:47:20Z")
[Mike Huckabee suggests](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/huckabee-trump-ignore-judge-travel-ban-jackson-trail-tears) that Trump ignore the judge’s ruling – citing (get this) motherfucking _Andrew Jackson_, who went ahead with ethnic cleansing (also known as the Trail of Tears) against the rulings of the SCOTUS. So yes, at least one prominent Republican is now defending ethnic cleansing. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/24 "2017-03-16T14:52:18Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Apologies if this isn’t the right thread, but why do you think Tweety is pushing this travel ban? Is it solely to appeal to his most rabid base, to distract them from the fact that they aren’t going to benefit from any policy under him, but to allow them to rant over the danger of terrorists and foreigners? > > Is it a distraction - just to get the media, courts, and public worked up over this one nonissue, while something else gets less attention? > > Or does any legitimate, reasonable source of any political stripe feel this is needed, reasonable, and desirable? > > Don’t get me wrong - I have no objection to some rational immigration reform. But I can’t fathom why he wants to commit so much to this approach. Sounds like an appropriate place for it to me. It’s a sop to the ignorant part of his base, and if he can’t get it enacted, he will blame the ‘disgraceful’ courts that had the audacity to disagree with him on those damned inconvenient constitutional grounds. And it’s an attempted distraction from Russia and false wiretap allegations and the health care fiasco and budgetary strangulation and dot dot dot. I also personally think that he can’t possibly ever back down on anything he’s proposed, basically because he’s a narcissistic egomaniac. That’s before we even get into the rights guaranteed to be trampled by his unshackling of ICE. Reasonable is kind of a grey area. Most Republicans seem to think it’s necessary, in the face of facts that show that this is mental masturbation as far as stopping potential terrorists from entering the country. But then, they’re well-practiced at denying facts. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/25 "2017-03-16T14:59:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [Mike Huckabee suggests](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/huckabee-trump-ignore-judge-travel-ban-jackson-trail-tears) that Trump ignore the judge’s ruling – citing (get this) motherfucking _Andrew Jackson_, who went ahead with ethnic cleansing (also known as the Trail of Tears) against the rulings of the SCOTUS. > > So yes, at least one prominent Republican is now defending ethnic cleansing. And he pretends to preach the Gospel. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/26 "2017-03-16T15:20:21Z")
A judge from Maryland also struck down the travel ban, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/27 "2017-03-16T15:34:06Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > A judge from Maryland also struck down the travel ban, FWIW. And he issued a preliminary injunction, which potentially has a longer term than a TRO. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/28 "2017-03-16T15:41:16Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > He promised a “total and complete ban on Muslims”, and his fearful base lapped it up. Now he’s trying to deliver _something_. And the Muslim ban is STILL up on his campaign site as one of his #1 promises. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/29 "2017-03-16T15:43:05Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The judge is an Obama appointee, but he was appointed as an assistant federal attorney by Bush. Assistant US Attorneys are not appointed by the president. They’re not even appointed by the Attorney General. They are hired in a competitive decentralized hiring process by the local US Attorney. I have no knowledge or opinion of Judge Watson, but that fact that Bush was president when he was hired at the US Attorney’s office in Hawaii is no more relevant than the fact that Clinton was president when he was hired at the US Attorney’s office in California. Or that a Republican was governor of California when he was admitted to the bar there. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/30 "2017-03-16T15:48:58Z")
Once the courts believe that something has an impermissible discriminatory animus behind it, it might be extremely difficult ever to get such a ban through. It’s clear that at least some courts buy the animus argument. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/31 "2017-03-16T16:55:30Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > Assistant US Attorneys are not appointed by the president. They’re not even appointed by the Attorney General. > [@](#): > > Assistant U. S. Attorneys are appointed by the Attorney General and may be removed by that official. > **[title1general.pdf](https://www.justice.gov/archive/usao/usam/1988/title1general.pdf)** > > 48.18 MB ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/32 "2017-03-16T17:11:41Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > And he issued a preliminary injunction, which potentially has a longer term than a TRO. Legal question: Obviously, Trump has a major problem with the 9th. So which circuit court does the WH file the appeal, the 9th or the 4th? Both? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/33 "2017-03-16T17:18:32Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > Assistant US Attorneys are not appointed by the president. They’re not even appointed by the Attorney General. They are hired in a competitive decentralized hiring process by the local US Attorney. I have no knowledge or opinion of Judge Watson, but that fact that Bush was president when he was hired at the US Attorney’s office in Hawaii is no more relevant than the fact that Clinton was president when he was hired at the US Attorney’s office in California. Or that a Republican was governor of California when he was admitted to the bar there. Thanks for clearing this up for me, I was misinformed. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/34 "2017-03-16T17:21:41Z")
Trump said in his interview with Tucker Carlson yesterday, that he would be taking the original executive order to the Supreme Court, not the second one. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/35 "2017-03-16T17:22:11Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > What he fails to grasp (and you, too, apparently) is that his orders must address an actual problem. That’s an extraordinary claim. Do you have cite in the Constitution or other laws for that assertion? ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/36 "2017-03-16T17:43:15Z")
ckalli1998 wrote: “This was a totally activist decision that didn’t even focus its attention on the words of the travel ban statute; it instead decided to focus on what Rudy Giuliani said during the campaign about it, which of course is not the same as the final executive version that Trump signed, but I guess the Hawaiian judge was too dense to realize it.” I’m confused. Aren’t conservatives the ones that are always saying that we should look at “original intent”? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/37 "2017-03-16T18:01:12Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > I’m confused. Aren’t conservatives the ones that are always saying that we should look at “original intent”? That’s not what “original intent” means. > [@](#): > > The theory of interpretation by which judges attempt to ascertain the meaning of a particular provision of a state or federal constitution by determining how the provision was understood at the time it was drafted and ratified. The term has nothing to do with what somebody said on the campaign trail. > **[Original Intent](https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Original+Intent)** > > Definition of Original Intent in the Legal Dictionary by The Free Dictionary ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/38 "2017-03-16T18:03:03Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That’s an extraordinary claim. Do you have cite in the Constitution or other laws for that assertion? His orders are discriminatory on their face. Constitutional protections exist to prevent such discrimination – even extending to immigrants and non-citizens. I cited you to two of those protections in my original post. As for the ‘actual problem’ issue, U. S. District Judge Derrick Watson in Hawaii made specific reference to the **“questionable evidence supporting the Government’s national security motivations,”** (bolding mine) in his ruling, as pointed out by **Battle Pope**. It was also referenced by the 9th Circuit in their ruling: [Ruling of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals](http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/general/2017/02/06/17-35105%20Washington%20Opposition.pdf). Trump cannot issue executive orders that satisfy only his own bigotry, and nothing else. If you think a president can issue executive orders but can’t support his/her assertions for the basis of those orders, then I think you need to brush up on how the law actually works. He doesn’t just get to say, “Because terrorism.” He has to show how his orders will actually prevent it from happening. They don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/39 "2017-03-16T18:23:31Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > [https://www.justice.gov/archive/usao/usam/1988/title1general.pdf](https://www.justice.gov/archive/usao/usam/1988/title1general.pdf) Fair enough. My mistake. I didn’t actually know that the AUSA is formally appointment by the AG. (Although, the manual goes on to explain that appointment authority has been delegated to the Director of the Office of Attorney Personnel Management.). My experience has been that the hiring is done on the office level (see also [USAJOBS - Job Announcement](https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/451842500) (“Experienced attorney hiring is decentralized and each office, including the United States Attorneys’ Offices, conducts its own recruitment for experienced attorneys”). ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281/40 "2017-03-16T18:56:54Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > As for the ‘actual problem’ issue, U. S. District Judge Derrick Watson in Hawaii made specific reference to the **“questionable evidence supporting the Government’s national security motivations,”** (bolding mine) in his ruling, as pointed out by **Battle Pope**. That ruling may very well be limited or overturned on appeal. It’s not settled law. In any case, it does not support your claim that “his orders must address an actual problem.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travel-ban-oh-for-two/782281.md?page=3)