# Travesty on Final Jeopardy 2/5/2014 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 6, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637 "2014-02-06T03:55:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/181 "2014-02-15T02:55:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Your problem is that you think it is a “fill in the blank” question. It isn’t. In English grammar, “this element” is a pronoun phrase\* that must have an antecedent. Replacing the pronoun with its antecedent is always possible. So whether you call it “fill in the blank” or “replace the antecedent,” the results are the same. For example, if I say “Look at Rover. That dog is hilarious,” I can replace the pronoun phrase\* “that dog” with Rover and the sentence still makes sense, so the second sentence is grammatical. But if I say “Look at Rover and Fido. That dog is hilarious,” I cannot replace “that dog” with “Rover and Fido,” so the sentence is not grammatical. Due to the way they are worded, Jeopardy clues are nearly always fill in the blank. And the exceptions do not use the “this \_\_\_” phrasing. \*I’m using “pronoun phrase” to mean any group of words that function as pronoun, i.e. a replacement for a noun. I’m not sure of the proper name for this concept. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/182 "2014-02-15T03:27:23Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > All of the above sounds like it came from someone that didn’t read my posts. What I wrote isn’t irrelevant and I already explained why. I’ve read your posts. Now I’ve read them again. Apparently, you’re hung up on having the terms “element symbols” and of “element’s symbols” in the clue as disqualifying Ag as the answer. As I already wrote, the occurrences of “element symbols” and of “element’s symbols” were both for specifying that only the symbols were being alphabetized. The clue then wanted the element for the answer. Ag is an element and it’s the correct element. ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/183 "2014-02-15T06:56:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Of the elements whose symbols don’t match their English names, this element’s symbol comes first alphabetically.” > > The sentence points out that elements have English names and they have symbols. Thus it makes a distinction between the element, its English name and its symbol. It does not specify any kind of preference of one over the other when identifying the symbol. If you think it does, please point it out. To rephrase the question to properly request an elemental symbol (rather than element’s symbol) for an answer: “Of the elemental symbols who don’t match their English names, this elemental symbol comes first alphabetically.” correct answer would be: Ag (rather than “silver”) ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/184 "2014-02-15T11:22:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The problem in the original construction is that it is unclear which noun the word “this” is modifying. Is it modifying “element('s),” and thus the answer is arguably just “silver,” or is it modifying “(element’s) symbol” where the answer would be “Ag”? Doesn’t the first clause eliminate this ambiguity? “Of the elements…this element’s…” Using your same antecedent explanation, how could the “blank” be anything other than “this element”? > [@](#): > > The problem is that I don’t think it’s clear that the clue is asking for the antecedent of “this element.” If it is “this element’s symbol,” you get “Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, **Ag** is alphabetically first,” which makes perfect sense. Hence why I think both answers must be accepted. Why would “Of the element symbols that don’t match” be a reasonable read of a sentence that specifically calls out the symbol in the second clause? This is where you lost me. This read makes it a different sentence entirely, and it makes no sense as a read of the sentence (IMO), unless we torture the various terms’ interchangeability to an absurd point. At that point you might as well concede that “Ag is the symbol for Ag” is somehow meaningful. The first clause concerns “elements,” not “element symbols.” I don’t get your alternate read of this at all. Unless I’m misunderstanding you. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/185 "2014-02-15T13:38:00Z")
I think it was given more leeway as a written Final Jeopardy answer. If the same question had been posed during normal play and a contestant had (verbally) responded “Ag,” I suspect they would not have accepted it. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/186 "2014-02-15T15:45:01Z")
> [@GreenElf](#): > > To rephrase the question to properly request an elemental symbol (rather than element’s symbol) for an answer: > > “Of the elemental symbols who don’t match their English names, this elemental symbol comes first alphabetically.” > > correct answer would be: Ag (rather than “silver”) Or an even smaller change: “For the elements whose symbols don’t match their English names, this element symbol comes first alphabetically.” A well-formed Jeopardy clue that shouldn’t raise any eyebrows. (Not sure what distinction you’re making between “element symbol” and “elemental symbol”?) ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/187 "2014-02-15T18:33:50Z")
Warning: No spoiler boxes below. Final Jeopardy questions and answers from recent Jeopardy episodes are posted. > [@Terr](#): > > Your problem is that you think it is a “fill in the blank” question. It isn’t. It’s a question that asks for “this element”. The element can be identified several ways. One of them is “Ag”. QED. Thinking of it as filling in the blank is an excellent way of looking at this. When giving an answer for Final Jeopardy, they have to do it in away where they don’t give away the question. They do this by filling in the words they’re looking for to be answered in question form with words like “ **this** ” or “ **this man** ’s” etc. Below are the latest Final Jeopardy answers and questions I have access to (no spoiler boxes): **02-12-14** _“Take care of him”, says the man called this in Luke 10 after giving money to an innkeeper_ The blank that’s being asked to be filled in is the word “this.” As a statement it would look like this: _“Take care of him”, says the man called the Good Samaritan in Luke 10 after giving money to an innkeeper_ But since the response must be done in question form, it must be stated like this: _Who is the Good Samaritan?_ This is how it always works on Final Jeopardy. The next two examples preceding the Final Jeopardy above: **02-11-14** _The most retweeted tweet of all time happened on November 6, 2012 & started with “four” & ended with these 2 words_ The blank that’s being asked to be filled in is “these 2 words.” Filling in the blank in statement form: _The most retweeted tweet of all time happened on November 6, 2012 & started with “four” & ended with “more years”_ In question form: _What is “more years?”_ **02-10-14** _In a satellite photo, volcanic activity can be seen on this 10,000-square-mile island_ The blank that’s being asked to be filled in is “this 10,000-square-mile island.” Filling in the blank in statement form: _In a satellite photo, volcanic activity can be seen on Sicily_ Question form: _What is Sicily?_ Back to **02/05/14** : _“Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, this element’s symbol is alphabetically 1st”_ The blank that’s being asked to be filled in is “this element’s.” Filling in the blank in statement form: _“Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, silver’s symbol is alphabetically 1st”_ Question form: _What is silver?_ What the statement would look like if someone answered with “_What is Ag_?” _“Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, Ag’s symbol is alphabetically 1st”_ Repeating what I wrote earlier (but fixing a mistaken word): Would anyone ever say or write “Ag’s symbol” in a sentence? No. Because it **is** the symbol. Google it and include the quotes. I found 33 hits and not one is using silver as the word that is represented by Ag (except the one hit going back to this thread). Contrast that with a Google search for “silver’s symbol.” I know a rebuttal I’m going to get is “but you said the blank that’s being asked to be filled in is ‘this element’s.’ Is Ag an element?” Yes, Ag is an element. But it must work with the rest of the statement and calling Ag the symbol for Ag is not something that should fly on Jeopardy. Likewise, I asked earlier if this would fly: _This element’s symbol, Hg, comes from the Latin word hydrargyrum, meaning “liquid silver”_ _What is Hg?_ You say it won’t work? But Hg is an element, right? And the blank that has to be filled in but in question form is “this element’s”, so why not? It’s not just because “Hg” was mentioned in the answer; it’s because the answer distinguishes between the element’s name and the symbol. That’s **why** they could put “Hg” in the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/188 "2014-02-15T18:42:45Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Likewise, I asked earlier if this would fly: > > _This element’s symbol, Hg, comes from the Latin word hydrargyrum, meaning “liquid silver”_ > > _What is Hg?_ > > You say it won’t work? But Hg is an element, right? And the blank that has to be filled in but in question form is “this element’s”, so why not? It’s not just because “Hg” was mentioned in the answer; it’s because the answer distinguishes between the element’s name and the symbol. That’s **why** they could put “Hg” in the answer. Take out Hg from the question, and Hg works as the answer. As in: _This element’s symbol, comes from the Latin word hydrargyrum, meaning “liquid silver”_ Answer: Hg. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/189 "2014-02-15T18:46:56Z")
^ Yes, I understand your position. I read it earlier. My post above explains why I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/190 "2014-02-15T20:45:22Z")
If you read “What is Ag?” out loud, what do you say? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/191 "2014-02-15T20:55:21Z")
It depends on the situation and context. If I was the host of a game show reading aloud contestants’ responses, I would read it the way Alex did. Is it relevant? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/192 "2014-02-15T22:01:30Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > ^ Yes, I understand your position. I read it earlier. My post above explains why I disagree. And your position is seriously weakened by your repeated inclusion of the symbol in what you suggest is the equivalent question. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/193 "2014-02-15T22:31:39Z")
OP here. I have been fascinated following all of the discussion above. Seems like my original outrage touched on something deep. Not quite sure what, however. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/194 "2014-02-15T23:18:09Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > It depends on the situation and context. If I was the host of a game show reading aloud contestants’ responses, I would read it the way Alex did. > > Is it relevant? I believe most would read it pronounced as “What is silver?” recognizing that the letters “Ag” equals “silver” equals element number 47 equals the element whose symbol doesn’t match its English name, whose symbol comes first alphabetically. The first is the symbol and the second is the English name, the element is referenced by either. If either is closer to being “the element” “Ag” is as “silver” is only what it is called in English (Silber in German, Plata in Spanish, Argent in French, eun in Korean …) while Ag would be recognized as the element by all. Please note: the answer was pointing out that the element’s symbol and element’s English name were different. Not sure why this is so controversial, let alone deep. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/195 "2014-02-15T23:57:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And your position is seriously weakened by your repeated inclusion of the symbol in what you suggest is the equivalent question. My position has been argued by more examples than the inclusion you speak of. And you’re wrong. I did not suggest it is an equivalent question. I made it obvious that it wasn’t. > [@DSeid](#): > > I believe most would read it pronounced as “What is silver?” I believe most would agree with me and would read it differently dependent on situation and context. Being a game show host and reading the answer that Alex did, it would make the most sense to read it just as he did. Would you still read it that way aloud in the following situation?: \*This is the symbol for silver. What is Ag?\* But there’s more to it than just how one reads it out loud, isn’t there? If you’re making the blanket claim that it’s how it’s said out loud that matters (or that “Ag”, “silver” and “the element 47” are always equal when used in a sentence) and how it’s written is of no matter, then you should be okay with this: \*This element’s symbol, Hg, comes from the Latin word hydrargyrum, meaning “liquid silver” What is Hg?\* But I bet you won’t be. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/196 "2014-02-16T00:23:40Z")
I didn’t clarify my last point above well. What I meant to specify is that it should be okay to pronounce “Hg” as “mercury” in both instances of the occurrence of “Hg.” ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/197 "2014-02-16T05:03:09Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > …Not sure why this is so controversial, let alone deep. Ah. Two fellow creatures, basking in uncertainty. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/198 "2014-02-16T15:13:08Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > If you read “What is Ag?” out loud, what do you say? I, honestly, say “What is A G”? Whenever I see an elemental symbol or chemical formula, I always say the letters and numbers. I actually didn’t realize that people substitute the English names for them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637.md?page=9)