# Travesty on Final Jeopardy 2/5/2014 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 6, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637 "2014-02-06T03:55:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/61 "2014-02-07T03:38:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t think so. It didn’t ask for an element’s name. Depending on how you chose to understand it, it either asked for “element”, or “element’s symbol”. As in either: > > Of the elements whose symbols don’t match their English names, this **element** ’s symbol comes first alphabetically > > or > > Of the elements whose symbols don’t match their English names, this **element’s symbol** comes first alphabetically > > Ag is the answer to either of the questions. Silver is the answer to the first one only. The latter (this **element’s symbol** ) isn’t grammatically correct If I’m understanding correctly what you’re going for by putting those two words together in bold. It would be correct to phrase the answer “this element symbol.” If that was what they were going for, then they shouldn’t have accepted the response “What is silver?”. > [@](#): > > Ag is “the element”. So is “silver”. Both are the correct answer, the judges were right. If you disqualify “Ag” as not being “the element” but only a symbol for it, you have to disqualify “silver” as not being “the element” but only a name for it. Then only a physical chunk of silver would qualify. Here is an answer from Double Jeopardy back in 2008: _This element’s symbol, Hg, comes from the Latin word hydrargyrum, meaning “liquid silver”_ Clearly the correct way to phrase the question did not involve handing in a bowl of mercury. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/62 "2014-02-07T04:27:58Z")
Sorry I seem to have abandoned my thread a bit - flu symptoms have increased somewhat. I feel that the question I posited in the OP has been adequately answered. An element’s name and its symbol _are_ synonymous representations of an element to many. I happen to disagree for reasons I have elucidated but hey, live and let live, eh? Now that the white-hot torch of fury for all things elemental has subsided to a warm, somewhat feverish glow, I shall rest, secure in knowing that the good fight was fought. Or, hey - I gave it a shot. My thanks to all who participated! Also, my sincere thanks for having forums such as these available to look at these sorts of questions. (Damn, now I really do sound pedantic) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/63 "2014-02-07T04:29:46Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Here is an answer from Double Jeopardy back in 2008: > > _This element’s symbol, Hg, comes from the Latin word hydrargyrum, meaning “liquid silver”_ > > Clearly the correct way to phrase the question did not involve handing in a bowl of mercury. Only because the symbol was in the question. If you omitted “Hg” from the question, “Hg” would be acceptable as the answer. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/64 "2014-02-07T04:32:30Z")
It’s interesting to see how different the reactions are in different places. On a lot of Jeopardy! boards (the Jeopardy! forum at Television Without Pity, for example), the participants are nearly unanimous in agreeing with the OP. Nobody has used the word “travesty,” but several people have mentioned yelling at the TV in anger and frustration. The consensus at several Jeopardy!-specific boards is that the clue was very explicitly asking for the name of the element, as distinct from its symbol, and thus “Ag” is clearly wrong. I tend to agree. If I were a judge, I would not have accepted “Ag.” But I can see how you could make a good case either way. > [@jimbuff314](#): > > Also, this week is “The Battle of the '80’s” yet every contestant I’ve > seen has been from the 1990’s. Any idea why this is? This I do know a definitive answer to. It’s actually a misnomer for them to call this week “The 80’s,” and I’m not sure why they’re doing it. The “Decades Tournament” represents the three decades that this version of Jeopardy! has been on the air. The show premiered in 1984. So the three decades are actually 1984-1993, 1994-2003, and 2004-2013. Why they’re calling this week “The 80’s,” when it includes almost half of the 1990’s, I can’t imagine. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/65 "2014-02-07T04:50:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Only because the symbol was in the question. If you omitted “Hg” from the question, “Hg” would be acceptable as the answer. See, the way I parse the English, “Mercury” would be the answer, not “Hg.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/66 "2014-02-07T04:54:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > See, the way I parse the English, “Mercury” would be the answer, not “Hg.” The question is for the element, not the element’s English name. If it was for an element’s name, then only “Mercury” would be the answer. But for an element, both Hg and mercury are acceptable. “What’s one element in salt?”. Chlorine is acceptable. So is Cl. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/67 "2014-02-07T05:21:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The question is for the element, not the element’s English name. If it was for an element’s name, then only “Mercury” would be the answer. But for an element, both Hg and mercury are acceptable. > > “What’s one element in salt?”. Chlorine is acceptable. So is Cl. That’s fine. But, once again, the way I parse the English, the answer is “Mercury.” ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/68 "2014-02-07T12:53:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Only because the symbol was in the question. If you omitted “Hg” from the question, “Hg” would be acceptable as the answer. If it wasn’t, then the only correct way to respond would involve handing in a bowl of mercury? No, not “only”, but for the other reasons I mentioned. This **element’s symbol** doesn’t work because it’s not grammatically correct and the response “What is silver?” could not have been deemed correct. So we’re left with “this element’s symbol” meaning the element that’s represented by a certain symbol, which is separating the English name from the symbol. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/69 "2014-02-07T13:11:01Z")
We’ve been debating a Jeopardy! answer that was phrased incorrectly by the OP. I should have checked my Tivo earlier. This is the correct phrasing: _“Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, this element’s symbol is alphabetically 1st”_ Definitely showing a difference between “element symbols” and “element’s symbol.” The symbol is alphabetically first and what’s being asked for is the name of the element that is represented by that symbol. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/70 "2014-02-07T14:42:27Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > You can read that as either “(this element’s) symbol comes first” and the answer would be silver or “(this element’s symbol) comes first” and the answer would be Ag. Until this post, I was with the OP. But this reveals that the question was ambiguous, which is probably why the judges decided to accept a different answer than intended. If they’d wanted the element name, they should have said “the symbol for this element comes first.” I honestly can’t figure out why there are people still insisting that “(this element’s) symbol comes first” is the only possible reading of the clue. As long as there is the possibility of reading it the other way, both answers had to be accepted. Again, blame the clue writers for not noticing and correcting the ambiguity. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/71 "2014-02-07T14:54:22Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > We’ve been debating a Jeopardy! answer that was phrased incorrectly by the OP. I should have checked my Tivo earlier. This is the correct phrasing: > > _“Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, this element’s symbol is alphabetically 1st”_ > > Definitely showing a difference between “element symbols” and “element’s symbol.” The symbol is alphabetically first and what’s being asked for is the name of the element that is represented by that symbol. In that question, what is being asked for is “element”. Not “name of the element”. How one specifies the element in response is the responder’s choice, as long as it is clear and unambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pasta)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/72 "2014-02-07T15:31:18Z")
**jimbuff314** : If the clue were, “This element has an atomic number of 47,” would you accept “Ag” as a valid answer? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/73 "2014-02-07T17:03:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > In that question, what is being asked for is “element”. Not “name of the element”. How one specifies the element in response is the responder’s choice, as long as it is clear and unambiguous. But you said this: > [@Terr](#): > > I don’t think so. It didn’t ask for an element’s name. Depending on how you chose to understand it, it either asked for “element”, or “element’s symbol”. As in either: > > Of the elements whose symbols don’t match their English names, this **element** ’s symbol comes first alphabetically > > or > > Of the elements whose symbols don’t match their English names, this **element’s symbol** comes first alphabetically > > Ag is the answer to either of the questions. Silver is the answer to the first one only. You said if the meaning was “this **element** ’s symbol”, then “silver” would be the only answer. Do you not agree with me that this **element’s symbol** doesn’t work? > [@Pasta](#): > > **jimbuff314** : If the clue were, “This element has an atomic number of 47,” would you accept “Ag” as a valid answer? I would. But as jimbuff314 already pointed out, “‘this element’s symbol’ differentiates between an element and it’s symbol.” Let’s look at the example from 2008 that I posted: _"This element’s symbol, Hg, comes from the Latin word hydrargyrum, meaning “liquid silver”_ Of course the main objection I will get from not accepting “What is Hg?” is that “Hg” is mentioned in the answer. But there’s a reason they can put Hg in there and not give anything away. The reason is they started off with “This element’s symbol”, which means they want the name of the element that the symbol represents. That would be true if they deleted “Hg” from the answer and phrased it thusly: _"This element’s symbol comes from the Latin word hydrargyrum, meaning “liquid silver”_ ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/74 "2014-02-07T17:19:38Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > The reason is they started off with “This element’s symbol”, which means they want the name of the element that the symbol represents. I guess you’re psychic. Because I don’t see how that means they want the name. > [@](#): > > _"This element’s symbol comes from the Latin word hydrargyrum, meaning “liquid silver”_ For this question, “Hg” is a valid answer. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/75 "2014-02-07T17:21:18Z")
I think the OP needs to recalibrate their Travesty Meter. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/76 "2014-02-07T17:21:58Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > You said if the meaning was “this **element** ’s symbol”, then “silver” would be the only answer. Do you not agree with me that this **element’s symbol** doesn’t work? No, I do not. I also don’t see how that would be ungrammatical. Oh and I didn’t say that if the meaning was “this **element** ’s symbol” the answer could only be “silver”. Read it again. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/77 "2014-02-07T17:37:45Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > We’ve been debating a Jeopardy! answer that was phrased incorrectly by the OP. I should have checked my Tivo earlier. This is the correct phrasing: > > _“Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, this element’s symbol is alphabetically 1st”_ > > Definitely showing a difference between “element symbols” and “element’s symbol.” The symbol is alphabetically first and what’s being asked for is the name of the element that is represented by that symbol. Wow, the way they wrote that doesn’t help matters any! ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/78 "2014-02-07T17:38:00Z")
Isn’t this a standard phrasing on Jeopardy? They give something like _This [thing]'s [clue]_ and they want [thing] as the answer. If they asked: This snowboarder’s nickname might be a fruit or might be a vegetable. they want “Shaun White” not “The Flying Tomato”. If they wanted the nickname, they’d use something like “This nickname of a famous snowboarder might be a fruit or might be a vegetable.” ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/79 "2014-02-07T18:13:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, I do not. I also don’t see how that would be ungrammatical. When you write “this **element’s symbol** ” in bold together, how are you defining that that is different from “this **element** ’s symbol”? > [@](#): > > Oh and I didn’t say that if the meaning was “this **element** ’s symbol” the answer could only be “silver”. Read it again. You said: _"Ag is the answer to either of the questions. Silver is the answer to the first one only._" If you meant Silver and Ag is acceptable in the first case, why didn’t you write that? You wrote that “silver” is the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/80 "2014-02-07T18:18:01Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > I think the OP needs to recalibrate their Travesty Meter. Yeah, this thread is so dumb! It’s a silly con game! It’s borin’ ! That’s what I zinc! Bismuth! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637.md?page=5)