# Travesty on Final Jeopardy 2/5/2014 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 6, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637 "2014-02-06T03:55:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/81 "2014-02-07T18:19:33Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > When you write “this **element’s symbol** ” in bold together, how are you defining that that is different from “this **element** ’s symbol”? You don’t. It’s ambiguous. > [@](#): > > You said: > > _"Ag is the answer to either of the questions. Silver is the answer to the first one only._" > > If you meant Silver and Ag is acceptable in the first case, why didn’t you write that? You wrote that “silver” is the answer. Ah now I see why you insist that “silver” was the only answer to the original question. You have problems reading simple English. Let me lay it out for you. _"Ag is the answer to either of the questions. Silver is the answer to the first one only._" There are two questions. “Ag” is a valid answer to either of them. That is, “Ag” is a valid answer to number one. And “Ag” is a valid answer to number two. “Silver” is a valid answer only to number one. “Silver” is not a valid answer to number two. Hope this made it clearer for you. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/82 "2014-02-07T18:27:01Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If they’d wanted the element name, they should have said “the symbol for this element comes first.” If you read “this element’s symbol” as ambiguous, I can’t see how “the symbol for this element comes first” is any less ambiguous. It seems to me either they’re both ambiguous, or they’re both asking for the (English name of the) element. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/83 "2014-02-07T18:40:16Z")
I’m with Jeopardy! on this one. It’s the way the game is \*always \*played. The first answer was the correct **element,** but the clue required a **symbol.** _“Silver” is not a symbol._ I don’t think the writers will lose much sleep over this. I’ve seen contestants tripped up in a similar manner before. It’s how the game works. Contestant #1 forgot the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/84 "2014-02-07T18:44:45Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > If you read “this element’s symbol” as ambiguous, I can’t see how “the symbol for this element comes first” is any less ambiguous. It seems to me either they’re both ambiguous, or they’re both asking for the **(English name of the)** element. See bolded - you had to insert that in order to make it non-ambiguous, didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/85 "2014-02-07T18:45:45Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I’m with Jeopardy! on this one. It’s the way the game is \*always \*played. The first answer was the correct **element,** but the clue required a **symbol.** _“Silver” is not a symbol._ > > I don’t think the writers will lose much sleep over this. I’ve seen contestants tripped up in a similar manner before. It’s how the game works. Contestant #1 forgot the rules. Contestant #1’s answer was valid, and was judged correct as well. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/86 "2014-02-07T18:51:34Z")
Remember that Jeopardy gives you an **answer** as the “clue”, and the contestant are required to form the **question** that correctly matches the answer. So, the following does not make sense and is therefore incorrect: Question: “What is Ag” Answer: “Of the elements whose symbols don’t match their English names, this element’s symbol comes first alphabetically” ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/87 "2014-02-07T19:01:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You have problems reading simple English. Let me lay it out for you. Let’s avoid insulting other posters, shall we? Thanks, **twickster** , Cafe Society moderator ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/88 "2014-02-07T19:04:16Z")
> [@K364](#): > > Remember that Jeopardy gives you an **answer** as the “clue”, and the contestant are required to form the **question** that correctly matches the answer. > > So, the following does not make sense and is therefore incorrect: > > Question: “What is Ag” > Answer: “Of the elements whose symbols don’t match their English names, this element’s symbol comes first alphabetically” Why does it not make sense? This element’s (that is, Ag’s) symbol (that is, Ag) comes first alphabetically. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/89 "2014-02-07T19:05:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > See bolded - you had to insert that in order to make it non-ambiguous, didn’t you? Well, I don’t think it’s ambiguous, but you do, so I put it in there for your benefit with the hopes of avoiding the argument. But that didn’t work. Look, I’m responding at how I interpret it as a native English speaker. To me, it clearly is asking for the element, not the symbol. I do not see ambiguity in the phrasing. I do not interpret “Ag” to be the name of the element, otherwise, why mention the symbol as a separate thing? Like I said in my initial post, I have no problem with the judging. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/90 "2014-02-07T19:10:42Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I’m with Jeopardy! on this one. It’s the way the game is \*always \*played. The first answer was the correct **element,** but the clue required a **symbol.** _“Silver” is not a symbol._ > > I don’t think the writers will lose much sleep over this. I’ve seen contestants tripped up in a similar manner before. It’s how the game works. Contestant #1 forgot the rules. It sounds to me like both answers were ruled as being “correct” in the OP. Or did I misunderstand that? If “silver” were judged wrong and “Ag” were right then, yeah, I have a problem with that. It seems to me that both “silver” and “Ag” were ruled as “correct.” ETA: At any rate, there’s clearly ambiguity because folks are arguing about it, but I just can’t see it or hear it. ---
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/91 "2014-02-07T19:11:24Z")
I don’t see a problem with this Ag and Silver are p. much the same response ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/92 "2014-02-07T19:11:47Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Look, I’m responding at how I interpret it as a native English speaker. To me, it clearly is asking for the element, not the symbol. For me as well, it is clearly asking for the element. “Ag” is the element. So is “silver”. Either is a valid answer to the question. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/93 "2014-02-07T19:14:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > For me as well, it is clearly asking for the element. “Ag” is the element. So is “silver”. Either is a valid answer to the question. See, that’s where we differ. In a question that mentions both an “element” and a “symbol”, I do not consider answering with the symbol name as being correct. It’s like answering “This element’s symbol is Ag” with the answer “Ag.” I would consider that incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/94 "2014-02-07T19:17:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You don’t. It’s ambiguous. Then I don’t know why you bothered separating it in bold and declaring that the answer is “Silver” and not “silver and Ag.” If it’s ambiguous, what other meaning do you think it can have other than “the symbol of this element”? Do you think it can also mean “this element symbol”? Again, if so, than “silver” could never have been deemed correct. If something else, what? > [@](#): > > Ah now I see why you insist that “silver” was the only answer to the original question. You have problems reading simple English. Let me lay it out for you. > > _"Ag is the answer to either of the questions. Silver is the answer to the first one only._" > > There are two questions. “Ag” is a valid answer to either of them. That is, “Ag” is a valid answer to number one. And “Ag” is a valid answer to number two. “Silver” is a valid answer only to number one. “Silver” is not a valid answer to number two. Hope this made it clearer for you. My English is fine. You didn’t answer my question. > [@K364](#): > > Remember that Jeopardy gives you an **answer** as the “clue”, and the contestant are required to form the **question** that correctly matches the answer. > > So, the following does not make sense and is therefore incorrect: > > Question: “What is Ag” > Answer: “Of the elements whose symbols don’t match their English names, this element’s symbol comes first alphabetically” I think it definitely helps to look at it that way. But it was actually phrased a little differently than the OP posted: Question: “What is Ag” Answer: “Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, this element’s symbol is alphabetically 1st” I don’t see how that can be deemed correct. “This element’s symbol” would have to mean that the name of the symbol is not what they’re looking for but the English name is. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/95 "2014-02-07T19:25:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why does it not make sense? This element’s (that is, Ag’s) symbol (that is, Ag) comes first alphabetically. Because Ag is a symbol, not an element. If they wanted the symbol as the question (“What is Ag”), the the answer would be: “Of the elements whose symbols don’t match their English names, this symbol for an element comes first alphabetically” or … this elemental symbol comes first alphabetically. (probably bad grammer but understandable) or …this element symbol comes first alphabetically. but definitely not … this element’s symbol comes first alphabetically. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/96 "2014-02-07T19:26:05Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > See, that’s where we differ. In a question that mentions both an “element” and a “symbol”, I do not consider answering with the symbol name as being correct. It’s like answering “This element’s symbol is Ag” with the answer “Ag.” I would consider that incorrect. Of course you would. So would I. Because the answer is in the question. Now if Ag wasn’t in the question (hard to think of a question where it’s the only answer but: “This element is a metal that has been used as currency, making mirrors and photography”, “Ag” would be a perfectly valid answer. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/97 "2014-02-07T19:28:24Z")
> [@K364](#): > > Because Ag is a symbol, not an element. And “silver” is not an element, but an English name for one. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/98 "2014-02-07T19:31:50Z")
> [@K364](#): > > Because Ag is a symbol, not an element. > > If they wanted the symbol as the question (“What is Ag”), the the answer would be: > > “Of the elements whose symbols don’t match their English names, this symbol for an element comes first alphabetically” > > or > > … this elemental symbol comes first alphabetically. (probably bad grammer but understandable) > > or > > …this element symbol comes first alphabetically. > > but definitely not > > … this element’s symbol comes first alphabetically. No one is saying that they were asking for the symbol, just that they were asking for a way to express the answer “silver”, and answering with the chemical symbol for something is usually allowed. When the answer they’re looking for is “water”, “H2O” is usually allowed. My argument is that “This element’s symbol” disqualifies the symbol itself from being the answer (question, actually). ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/99 "2014-02-07T19:32:00Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > Well let’s call it flu-driven outrage then. And at this point I hereby apologize for using the word “travesty” in the thread title. Things like the distinction I attempted to draw matter to me. In fact, I cringe when I see that I said “and it’s symbol” in my post above instead of “and its symbol”. I know that there are people on the boards for whom this is grating. It just comes down to the fact that there are multiple ways to skin that cat. For example, if the question had been “The only mineral we eat”, the answers could all legitimately be (in descending order of pedantry) “What is Halite?”, “What is salt?” and “What is sodium chloride?” All describe the same thing in the context of the question- nobody really eats halite, but it is the mineral name. Salt is probably the most likely answer, and sodium chloride is the chemical name for what the mineral is composed of. In the OP, the ambiguity is in the ‘this element’ part. You can refer to elements by the symbol or the name interchangeably in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/100 "2014-02-07T19:39:14Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Then I don’t know why you bothered separating it in bold and declaring that the answer is “Silver” and not “silver and Ag.” Because bolding removed the ambiguity by either combing the words together or not. > [@](#): > > My English is fine. You didn’t answer my question. I did. There are several ways to say the same thing. I chose one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637.md?page=6)