# Travesty on Final Jeopardy 2/5/2014 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 6, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637 "2014-02-06T03:55:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/141 "2014-02-14T18:25:42Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > Of course. “Silver” and “Ag” are both names for an element. Well, that’s where we differ. In a question making a distinction between a name and a symbol, “silver” is the name and “Ag” is the symbol. Hell, even without the question, I wouldn’t say “Ag” is the name of an element. It is a symbol or abbreviation for a name of an element. But we’ve rehashed this in the thread, I suppose, and it seems both sides are firmly entrenched. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/142 "2014-02-14T18:28:14Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > Of course. “Silver” and “Ag” are both names for an element. “Paul” and “Paul’s guitar” are names for two completely different things. > > Read post 118. > Actually, read the whole thread. Why should we rehash everything because you can’t be bothered to read? You needn’t rehash anything for me. I didn’t ask you for a @#$%ing thing. I will, however, let my unassailable logic stand for all reasonable folk to digest and delight in. I’m a real do-gooder that way. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/143 "2014-02-14T18:30:37Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Well, that’s where we differ. In a question making a distinction between a name and a symbol, “silver” is the name and “Ag” is the symbol. Hell, even without the question, I wouldn’t say “Ag” is the name of an element. It is a symbol or abbreviation for a name of an element. But we’ve rehashed this in the thread, I suppose, and it seems both sides are firmly entrenched. “silver” is the name of the element. “Ag” is the symbol for the element. The question asked for an element. Not its name. Not its symbol. It asked for an element. Both “silver” and “Ag” identify the element. Thus both are valid answers. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/144 "2014-02-14T18:32:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I sort of agree with the OP. The question did make a point of distinguishing between an element’s name and its symbol and asked for the name. And the knowledge to answer the question is not necessarily the same. Suppose, for example, the guy was always mixing up whether Ag stood for gold and Au stood for silver or the other way around. He’d know Ag came before Au in the alphabet but he wouldn’t know if gold or silver was the correct answer. So he’d just bluff and write down “What is Ag?” (which in this case would be a genuine question). So what? Bluffing works about a third of the time on Jeopardy. A: “\ by this Mormon leader.” Q: “Who was Brigham Young?” (or, if it’s on the bottom third of the board, Joseph Smith) Alex: “You’re right!” Yeah, I may be exaggerating about a third of the time, but there are several times per show where the clue is something very obscure, but the correct response is the only name 90% of people have ever heard of in association with the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/145 "2014-02-14T18:39:39Z")
What if the clue were this: “Of the elements whose symbols don’t match their English names, this element’s symbol, Ag, has led to intense debate on the SDMB.” Would Ag be an acceptable answer? It’s synonymous, after all… ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/146 "2014-02-14T18:47:02Z")
^ I gave similar examples in posts 23 and 61. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/147 "2014-02-14T18:49:15Z")
Yes, and it’s as wise today as it was 8 days ago. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/148 "2014-02-14T18:56:13Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > What if the clue were this: “Of the elements whose symbols don’t match their English names, this element’s symbol, Ag, has led to intense debate on the SDMB.” > > Would Ag be an acceptable answer? It’s synonymous, after all… No, it wouldn’t be, since Ag is in the question. We’ve been over it. Remove it from the question, and Ag becomes a valid answer. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/149 "2014-02-14T19:13:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, it wouldn’t be, since Ag is in the question. We’ve been over it. Remove it from the question, and Ag becomes a valid answer. No, because “this element’s symbol” disqualifies the symbol from being the answer. What’s being looked for is the element that the symbol represents. I realize your objection to the above is that if “Ag” is a symbol and not an element, then “silver” is not an element but a word. But we don’t talk that way. Neither did Alex when he read off the last contestant’s question which I quoted in post 140: _**“What is AG, and that is the chemical symbol for (slight pause) silver. You are right, you add…”**_ He said it is the chemical symbol for silver, and not “it is the chemical symbol for the element that the word silver represents” because it’s not necessary. “Silver” is synonymous for the element AG represents based on the phrasing in the answer “this element’s symbol.” “Elements” in that part of the sentence is synonymous with the word silver, just as the word “silver” is synonymous with the element in the following part of Alex’s sentence: _ **“is the chemical symbol for silver.”** _ ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/150 "2014-02-14T19:21:26Z")
Is Ag an element? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/151 "2014-02-14T19:24:05Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > No, because “this element’s symbol” disqualifies the symbol from being the answer. What’s being looked for is the element that the symbol represents. That’s your opinion. That’s not a fact. The fact is that what is being asked for is an element. Not element’s name specifically or element’s symbol specifically. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/152 "2014-02-14T19:44:28Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > “Paul’s primary musical instrument” is not a way of referring to Paul, in the way that Ag is a way of referring to silver. Okay, if the answer were “this former Beatle’s nickname derives from the Gaelic prefix meaning ‘son of’,” would you accept both “what is Paul McCartney” and “what is Macca?” If it were “the nickname of this former Beatle…” would that make a difference? It shouldn’t, because in both cases it’s asking for the name. And despite \*\*Terr’\*\*s attempt to draw a distinction, “this element’s symbol” means “the symbol for _this element_,” and nothing else. It’s clearly asking for the name of the element, _not_ the symbol. I’m with the OP. Jeopardy fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/153 "2014-02-14T19:49:50Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Okay, if the answer were “this former Beatle’s nickname derives from the Gaelic prefix meaning ‘son of’,” would you accept both “what is Paul McCartney” and “what is Macca?” If it were “the nickname of this former Beatle…” would that make a difference? Is “Macca” an identifier for Paul McCartney? Seriously, you guys cannot come up with a single equivalent question that would illustrate your point. Why do you think that is? > [@](#): > > It’s clearly asking for the name of the element, _not_ the symbol. It is clearly, and explicitly, asking for an element. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/154 "2014-02-14T19:52:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Is “Macca” an identifier for Paul McCartney? Yes. Do you know what a nickname is? ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/155 "2014-02-14T19:53:01Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > It shouldn’t, because in both cases it’s asking for the name. Here’s the “answer”: “Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, **this element** ’s symbol is alphabetically 1st” It asks for “this element”. Now, they may have _intended_ for the question to ask for the English name, but _as written_, Ag has to be accepted. ETA: Never heard of “Macca” as a nickname for Paul McCartney. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/156 "2014-02-14T20:18:19Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > It asks for “this element”. Exactly! Would anyone ever say “Ag’s symbol” in a sentence? The argument keeps being made that “Ag” and “silver” are synonymous, so why not? Because it wouldn’t make sense because Ag **is** the symbol. Likewise, the use of “this element’s” in the answer is a blank that’s being asked to be filled in when phrasing a question and filling it in with “Ag” would read “Ag’s symbol.” This makes sense: “Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, silver’s symbol is alphabetically 1st” This doesn’t: “Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, Ag’s symbol is alphabetically 1st” ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/157 "2014-02-14T20:39:29Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > For those of you who Tivoed it: What was Trebek’s reaction when the contestant’s “question” was displayed? Did he pronounce it “silver” or “A G” when he read it? Did he hesitate? Ask the judges for a ruling? Did his head start to explode, and next thing you knew, there was an animatronic replacement there that _almost_ looked like him? Often in cases like this, Trebek will look to the judges for a signal (?) from them as to the acceptability of the answer. It seemed to me that this is what he was doing. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/158 "2014-02-14T20:43:52Z")
> [@JacksMom](#): > > … > Now if someone else will admit to celebrating knowing the answer when all the contestants have bombed it by doing a Mary Katherine Gallagher while yelling ‘Triple Stumper Queen’…because I may have a friend that does that. Now, this was funny! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/159 "2014-02-14T20:52:50Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > No, because “this element’s symbol” disqualifies the symbol from being the answer. What’s being looked for is the element that the symbol represents. This is the answer in a nutshell, and it’s self-evident. The clue contained two different references: “The element,” which is the blank that needs to be filled in; and “this element’s symbol,” which is clearly a qualifier (with the reference to alphabetical order) to identify which “this element” is the proper response. It’s plain English. “This element’s symbol”–Ag–can’t be the answer as that sentence is constructed. The fact that Ag and silver reference the same element matters not, not when the sentence draws a clear distinction between the element (the answer it wanted) and its symbol (offered as a clue to zero in on the element). Come on, people, think! This is important! ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637/160 "2014-02-14T21:01:54Z")
Of the states where the first two letters of the English name don’t match the abbreviation, which state’s abbreviation is alphabetically first? Contestant 1: Alaska (correct!) Contestant 2: AK Does this help clarify anything? I think the AK and and Ag answers should be accepted, even though they are not the BEST answers. (er, questions) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/travesty-on-final-jeopardy-2-5-2014/680637.md?page=9)