# Trayvon Martin's mom getting 8 months paid leave. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804 "2012-05-13T21:29:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/201 "2012-05-16T17:40:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s simply a matter of applying to the gander what the goose is getting to understand the consternation behind someone taking 8 months off. Huh? What ever happened to the conservative fondness for free markets and liberty of contract? If someone doesn’t like that his job doesn’t offer this benefit, then let him go out and find a job that does. I am well aware that the Tea Party ethos originates in resentment and endorses market outcomes only to the extent that it means their enemies are deprived of things. When it turns out their enemies have obtained things in the free market that they want, but do not have, mysterious limitations on what the market ought to be able to provide suddenly materialize. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/202 "2012-05-16T22:33:51Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/203 "2012-05-16T22:55:08Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > **dngnb8** , you clearly believe you have refuted my argument, but I honestly do not know what your objection, or refutation, is. > > Earlier your objection was that you believed PTO is a form of commodity or currency. But after I’ve illustrated the issues with this position you’re refusing to say whether you still hold it. Do you? > > Humour me: just repeat your point one last time please. PTO donated via a compassionate leave program is a transferable value that can be audited and accounted for in detail. Therefore, it is a commodity. The commodity is time. The Value is based on the employees wage ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/204 "2012-05-16T22:56:55Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > **Agreed**. Either the other employees work harder, or more money is spent hiring/training a new person, or the taxpayer (in this case) suffers from inferior service. > > All of these impact _someone_. That’s the only point I was (failing) to make. 😉 > > I think in hockey, when one guy is in the box, and feeling shame, the other team has “The Power Play”. The extra money, though, comes from the leave taken from the other employees. The cost of replacement is built into the leave. The same amount of temp hours would be needed either way. As long as the monetary value of the employees’ leave is not less than monetary cost of Ms. Martin’s leave, no extra work or money is involved. I understand why some people balk at transferable leave, but, in large institutions it really does work. If you are jealous, remember that all of this is taken out of their potential salary. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/205 "2012-05-16T22:59:01Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The extra money, though, comes from the leave taken from the other employees. The cost of replacement is built into the leave. The same amount of temp hours would be needed either way. As long as the monetary value of the employees’ leave is not less than monetary cost of Ms. Martin’s leave, no extra work or money is involved. > > I understand why some people balk at transferable leave, but, in large institutions it really does work. If you are jealous, remember that all of this is taken out of their potential salary. I wish to clarify terminology in your example. The leave time isnt taken from the other employee, it is donated by the employee. Trayvons mom didnt go to her work begging for time off, and they just felt they would start cannibalizing other people PTO. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/206 "2012-05-17T02:34:41Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Huh? What ever happened to the conservative fondness for free markets and liberty of contract? If someone doesn’t like that his job doesn’t offer this benefit, then let him go out and find a job that does. Huh back at you. you asked a question and I answered it. I simply pointed out the absurdity of this applied to more people. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/207 "2012-05-17T14:28:29Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Huh? What ever happened to the conservative fondness for free markets and liberty of contract? That only applies to CEO pay and income gaps when compared to us lowly workers. When one of us lowly workers gets to avail themselves of the generosity of his fellow workers – it’s totally our business and should be condemned in the harshest terms. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/208 "2012-05-17T18:44:14Z")
I know of a teacher who used used taxpayer money to fly to Vegas and gamble at the poker tables for 3 days. How does this person still have a job??? (OK, the teacher was me and I used money I earned doing my, you know, job. But still…) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/209 "2012-05-17T21:28:07Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > PTO donated via a compassionate leave program is a transferable value that can be audited and accounted for in detail. Therefore, it is a commodity. > > The commodity is time. The Value is based on the employees wage Thank you for clarifying your position for me. Now here is why I do not believe it is correct to call PTO, or time itself, a commodity: The fact that something has value to someone, even a specific dollar value, does not make it a commodity. Commodity implies a tradable, salable and at least partially fungible, good or service. PTO is not that: I cannot buy PTO from you. There is no market. And the example you agreed with – that 20 people taking 1 day off could be significantly better or worse for a business than 1 person taking 20 days off – illustrates that it is not fungible. And yes, the word “commodity” probably could be used in a more broad sense in some contexts. But my point has been based on the fact that PTO is not an commodity in the economic sense. If you agree that it is not a commodity in this sense, then we don’t disagree on anything. Furthermore, you’re now making a distinction between time and PTO, and saying that it is _time itself_ that is the commodity. I don’t think this is entirely consistent with what you said before, but no matter, because time is not a commodity either. If it were a literal commodity I’m sure Steve Jobs would have bought himself some more. But we only really “give”, “take” or “spend” time in a figurative sense. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/210 "2012-05-17T22:30:05Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Thank you for clarifying your position for me. > Now here is why I do not believe it is correct to call PTO, or time itself, a commodity: > > The fact that something has value to someone, even a specific dollar value, does not make it a commodity. Commodity implies a tradable, salable and at least partially fungible, good or service. It was gifted. It has value. > [@](#): > > PTO is not that: I cannot buy PTO from you. There is no market. Yes there is a market. It isnt an open market like the Stock Market. But the PTO has value to the company. It is an asset that can transfer from 1 employee to another. Additionally, many organizations allow you to cash in (sell off) time in a bank, trading the time into direct monetary output. > [@](#): > > And the example you agreed with – that 20 people taking 1 day off could be significantly better or worse for a business than 1 person taking 20 days off – illustrates that it is not fungible. No it doesnt. > [@](#): > > And yes, the word “commodity” probably could be used in a more broad sense in some contexts. But my point has been based on the fact that PTO is not an commodity in the economic sense. If you agree that it is not a commodity in this sense, then we don’t disagree on anything. It is not a commodity on the open market, but it is a commodity within its specific market, the company. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, you’re now making a distinction between time and PTO, and saying that it is _time itself_ that is the commodity. I don’t think this is entirely consistent with what you said before, but no matter, because time is not a commodity either. > If it were a literal commodity I’m sure Steve Jobs would have bought himself some more. But we only really “give”, “take” or “spend” time in a figurative sense. I am sure you have heard these sayings Dont waste my time Time is money These sayings exist because of the value of time. That being said, Within the company, it has value, it has a calculable value, it can be transferred from one to another. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/211 "2012-05-18T08:28:02Z")
**(economic) Commodity**: an article of trade or commerce, especially a product as distinguished from a service. : A marketable item produced to satisfy wants or needs **fungible** : being of such nature or kind as to be freely exchangeable or replaceable, in whole or in part, for another of like nature or kind. : Interchangeable (Collins English dictionary, Random House dictionary) Now look back at your post and see if you’re making any sense at all. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/212 "2012-05-18T12:16:53Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Now look back at your post and see if you’re making any sense at all. Makes perfect sense. _Next!_ ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/213 "2012-05-18T13:11:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Makes perfect sense. _Next!_ Obviously you’ve decided that since you disagree with my conclusion you must disagree with the points leading to it, no matter what bullets must be bitten. If you bother to look at **dngnb8** ’s last post you’ll see (s)he is defining an (economic) commodity as basically “something of value” rather than it’s actual definition. Similarly for fungible; where the fact that 20 people taking a day off =/= 1 person taking 20 days is inconsistent with the definition of that word. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/214 "2012-05-18T14:51:42Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Add me to the set of people that finds this system distasteful. > > Allowing people to donate their leave to others means that PTO becomes proportional to a person’s popularity rather than need. > > And practically speaking, having, say, one person take a month off may well be worse for an organisation than having 20 people each take a day off; that one person might be the specialist in something. > > Just because people are voluntarily donating their leave doesn’t make it fair in every sense. > [@Mijin](#): > > My point is that annual leave should not “belong” to someone in such a way that they can donate it to others either. > > What I’m saying is, if leave is a commodity like money in the US, it shouldn’t be, it should be treated like permission to do something, which generally cannot be donated. > > From the sound of things, plus what **Bricker** added, situations where it would cause a problem are explicitly blocked. > So employers are aware that it would be a problem if leave were donated freely in any kind of organization, which was my point. Mijin, what is your point in this thread. In your initial post your complaints were: A) that leave donation policies aren’t fair, and B) that a leave donation policy may cause hardship for the company In the second post I quoted your points were: A) Leave should not “belong” to employees who can donate it, B) Leave shouldn’t be a commodity like money, it should be a “permission,” and again C) It can cause hardship for the company First, please let me know if I’ve misstated your points. That said, these are all opinions. It’s fine for you to hold those opinions and they may even be true in some cases. But, the FACT that companies choose to offer this benefit indicates to me and everyone else you’re arguing with in this thread that companies have weighed the costs and benefits of this type of policy and choose to keep it. You are free to choose to work at a company that does not offer this benefit or you can start your own company that doesn’t offer this benefit. If you work at a company that does offer this benefit you can complain to HR about how unfair it is and how you fear it might hurt the company, but I don’t think this will make you very popular. At some point is seems your point B in the second quote above changed from “should not” to “is not.” Now you are trying to win this thread to support your arguments based on a narrow definition of commodity. PTO may not meet the exact definition but it is certainly treated like a commodity at some companies, in what might be thought of as a special, tightly controlled market. So, please, if you want to continue to argue the strict definition of commodity, have at it. But you should at least acknowledge that your argument here is based on your unfavorable opinion of leave donation policies, and not based on fact. Or maybe you will choose to ignore this post, too. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/215 "2012-05-18T15:10:34Z")
Thank you **SmellMyWort** for trying to steer us back to the OP. The main post of mine to read is [post #161](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15066567&postcount=161) where I summarize my position and it is also the post where I first state that PTO is not a commodity. You’ll see that it was a minor point, supporting my argument but hardly central to it. But it is the one that most people here have tried to attack. Basically biting the bullet and claiming that PTO, or time itself, is a commodity. Believe me, I want to move away from the commodity point but I’m not being allowed to and the alternative view is absurd. I note that you don’t try to defend it. > [@](#): > > But you should at least acknowledge that your argument here is based on your unfavorable opinion of leave donation policies, and not based on fact. Or maybe you will choose to ignore this post, too. I don’t know why you have made a comment like that, but look at how many times I’ve posted to this thread. I’m responding to as much as I can. The rest of your post doesn’t work at all. You seem to be saying that since some companies in the US implement this policy, and people freely work for those companies, it must be a good policy. Do I even need to point out why this is flawed? ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/216 "2012-05-18T16:08:02Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Thank you **SmellMyWort** for trying to steer us back to the OP. > > The main post of mine to read is [post #161](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15066567&postcount=161) where I summarize my position and it is also the post where I first state that PTO is not a commodity. > You’ll see that it was a minor point, supporting my argument but hardly central to it. > > But it is the one that most people here have tried to attack. Basically biting the bullet and claiming that PTO, or time itself, is a commodity. > Believe me, I want to move away from the commodity point but I’m not being allowed to and the alternative view is absurd. I note that you don’t try to defend it. Thank you for your response. Early in the thread when you stated that PTO donation policies aren’t fair, the responses you received boiled down to: “I earned it and can do with it what I want, just like I can do what I want with the money I earn.” That’s not an exact quote but I think it’s a fair summary of what several posters said. It’s at that point that you diverged from your ititial argument and focused on arguing first that PTO _should not be_ a commodity and then PTO _is not_ a commodity. I haven’t focused on that point because in the context of your initial statements (i.e. PTO donation is unfair; PTO donation might not be good for the company) I don’t think is is all that important. Consider it a commodity or not, it is donated at some companies under rules set by the company. It is also often paid out and some companies let employees accrue a negative PTO balance. Good or bad is anyone’s opinion. My one statement regarding it you may have missed but it is my last post: _PTO may not meet the exact definition but it is certainly treated like a commodity at some companies, in what might be thought of as a special, tightly controlled market._ I ask you, if it’s not a commodity, what is it? If you’d rather call it a permission, fine, but it seems the only reason for doing that is to limit it in such a way to support your argument that it shouldn’t be donatable. > [@Mijin](#): > > I don’t know why you have made a comment like that, but look at how many times I’ve posted to this thread. I’m responding to as much as I can. Sorry for the snark. I thought you were ignoring my response to your post 161. > [@Mijin](#): > > The rest of your post doesn’t work at all. You seem to be saying that since some companies in the US implement this policy, and people freely work for those companies, it must be a good policy. Do I even need to point out why this is flawed? I didn’t say it _must_ be a good policy. It exists, so there are at least some companies and employees who seem to think it is a good policy. Fair enough? In my opinion it is a good policy as long as the company controls it in such a way that it isn’t abused. The results _might_ be unfair, but I think that is a tiny risk for something that can really help folks in a time of need. I would gladly donate if my company had one and hope that I would never need the favor returned. Do you think these policies should be banned? Do you think they should be run differently, such as a pool that donations go to and those in need apply to draw from? I just don’t see a downside to employees doing what they want with something they’ve earned. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/217 "2012-05-18T16:40:04Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > **(economic) Commodity**: an article of trade or commerce, especially a product as distinguished from a service. > : A marketable item produced to satisfy wants or needs > > **fungible** : being of such nature or kind as to be freely exchangeable or replaceable, in whole or in part, for another of like nature or kind. > : Interchangeable > > (Collins English dictionary, Random House dictionary) > > Now look back at your post and see if you’re making any sense at all. It makes sense. The market is within the company. Is says trade OR commerce one can Trade PTO PTO has value The market for trading the hours is strictly within the company Your defining market as a place like the exchange or a supermarket. The Organization is the market. Just because you and I cannot get their PTO, doesnt mean it doesnt qualify as the above definitions ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/218 "2012-05-18T16:51:00Z")
After reading the OP, which is dumb, I _really_ don’t want to wade through 5 pages, so if somebody can let me know whether there was a good point buried in there somewhere it’d be great. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/219 "2012-05-18T17:02:48Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > It’s at that point that you diverged from your ititial argument and focused on arguing first that PTO _should not be_ a commodity and then PTO _is not_ a commodity. Let me clarify what I meant: PTO is not a commodity so there is no _inherent reason_ why it should be treated as such in any given situation. If some companies want to do that, then fine, what I’m countering is the point “It’s my PTO, I should be able to do what I want with it”. My response is “Not necessarily; it’s your permission to not be at work, there is no inherent reason that you should have permission to transfer that permission”. > [@](#): > > I just don’t see a downside to employees doing what they want with something they’ve earned. As I said, I think it can lead to unfair outcomes where a popular person gets far more time off to grieve that an unpopular (or just less well-known) person. If the policy was: Employees can put some of their PTO into a pool, and this “emergency pool” is distributed according to strict rules then I would have less of a problem with it. But TM’s mom having 8 months off implies that is not the case. But as to the thing of everyone being happy to be a part of this system, let me give another example: In some Scandinavian countries, for some sectors there are gender quotas going up as high as 50:50. I think this is a flawed policy, even if the people in those countries are quite happy to support it. To support my argument I would give examples of why in some cases gender proportions might not be equal that have nothing to do with discrimination. Would you have a problem with this opinion? Do I necessarily have to believe the policy is a good one, because a number of people do? ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/220 "2012-05-18T17:32:34Z")
Permission not to come to work is between me an my supervisor. Whether I get paid for not coming is a factor of my leave balance. The PTO is not permission so your entire “you can’t transfer permission” falls apart. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804.md?page=12)