# Trayvon Martin's mom getting 8 months paid leave. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804 "2012-05-13T21:29:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/101 "2012-05-14T13:52:57Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Having an employee take 8 months off must be a pain. As a military reservist, I’m glad that employers are legally required to tolerate it. They always seem to manage. Seems like there’s been a lot of deployments in the last 10 years. And since Clausewitz said “war is the continuation of politics by different means,” I presume the OP is outraged at the _political_ use of your leave to go fight a war? > [@Acsenray](#): > > No, it’s someone’s compensation that has already been granted, legally. It’s no longer taxpayer money. Does your employer get to tell you how you spend your money or paid leave once it’s granted to you? Never mind _public_ employees and _taxpayer_ money. I’m waiting to hear all the outrage over employees of private and publicly-held corporations spending _company_ money on frivolous things like vacations, bereavement and illness. There’s no way that should be tolerated! ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/102 "2012-05-14T14:05:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, it implies no such thing. It implies that there are people who have earned a benefit who want to give that benefit to someone else, just like they can with cash. > > Should we also regulate people’s charitable donations the same way, so that a charity with less need doesn’t get more donations just because they have better outreach and public relations? It would be trivial to find money analogies that imply the opposite: e.g. imagine when paying taxes you got to say which state programmes the money went to. Everyone would get a fair choice, but it would lead to a very unfair situation. It’s better to let a department fairly distribute that money, just like annual leave should be fairly distributed. But in my view, it’s simply very misleading to compare annual leave to money. > [@](#): > > In a large organization that has enough employees such that a tiny percentage of them can contribute eight months’ leave, this is not going to be a problem. Firstly, why do you say tiny percentage? Secondly, the number of people contributing is irrelevant to whether it’s a problem or not. If someone is vital to the operation of the company then it’s a big problem if they happen to be popular and can take as long as they like off work. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/103 "2012-05-14T14:12:25Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > It would be trivial to find money analogies that imply the opposite: e.g. imagine when paying taxes you got to say which state programmes the money went to. Everyone would get a fair choice, but it would lead to a very unfair situation. It’s better to let a department fairly distribute that money, just like annual leave should be fairly distributed. You keep missing the point. In this case, the money doesn’t belong to the department, it doesn’t belong to the state, and it doesn’t belong to the taxpayers. This analogy doesn’t hold. > [@](#): > > But in my view, it’s simply very misleading to compare annual leave to money. Make an argument for that point then. > [@](#): > > Firstly, why do you say tiny percentage? Because it shows you how large the organization is. > [@](#): > > Secondly, the number of people contributing is irrelevant to whether it’s a problem or not. If someone is vital to the operation of the company then it’s a big problem if they happen to be popular and can take as long as they like off work. The point is that in a large organization there is unlikely to be (and there should not be) a situation in which the eight month absence of a single person is crippling. Why do you think it is that it is large organizations that offer leave banks in the first place? It’s because those are the kinds of organizations that can accommodate it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/104 "2012-05-14T14:18:45Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > So what? > > Out of the 1000+ Dade county employee 192 donated. You think someone is hunting down the remaining and harassing them? In theory, some people may feel pressure to donate, some to not donate. So, what do you do about it? It’s a legal, and I believe an extremely ethical system of people helping people for a variety of worthy causes. This is a particularly public case, but I’d be stunned if all 192 were really public. I have no problem with the donation of leave whatsoever, but I should point out that your incredulity is misplaced. Any county, city or state employee in Florida has compensation that’s public. That means that you, I, or any person can request the salary information, including donated hours, for a given employee. We can also then request the records of the donating employee, the purpose of such a scheme being obvious: it allows the public to be an auditor, and to ensure that the government employees are not enriching themselves with hours donated from non-existent employees. So each and every hour donated is public information, and that’s (in my opinion) as it should be. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/105 "2012-05-14T14:23:03Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Secondly, the number of people contributing is irrelevant to whether it’s a problem or not. If someone is vital to the operation of the company then it’s a big problem if they happen to be popular and can take as long as they like off work. I assume, without proof, that this works much as it does in my organization: there is a way to donate leave, but there’s also a gatekeeper function. That is, you can take leave only if your supervisory chain approves it. So for her to take the leave, I assume that not only was she “popular” enough (and I’ll leave aside the extended commentary and only point out that I’m sure she would trade all this popularity for a live son) but that her management approved her extended absence. What more should be necessary? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/106 "2012-05-14T14:31:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It’s not relevant in this case. But letting an employee go off for 8 months is certainly not unheard of. A large employer should have a system in place to make sure that operations keep running since anyone can turn up pregnant or become burdened with an ill spouse or child. Well yes it is certainly relevant in this and any other case. The Family Leave Act is for personal medical leave or for the care of a family member. So again, people may have donated 8 months of potential time but she would still have to qualify for it’s use. It doesn’t mean she will get to use all of it. I don’t see a debate hear unless people want to debate the donations. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/107 "2012-05-14T15:07:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I assume, without proof, that this works much as it does in my organization: there is a way to donate leave, but there’s also a gatekeeper function. That is, you can take leave only if your supervisory chain approves it. That helps, but it doesn’t change my opinion that this system is ultimately flawed and unfair. What happens to the leave that cannot be distributed because it is not approved? Is it returned to the donors? > [@](#): > > I’ll leave aside the extended commentary and only point out that I’m sure she would trade all this popularity for a live son Of course. The OP notwithstanding I have been talking about donating leave in general. I don’t have a problem with TM’s mom, and I’m sure just about anyone would rather have the loved one back that extra annual leave. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/108 "2012-05-14T15:13:54Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I don’t know how Trayvon Martin’s mom pulled this off. 8 months off paid leave from a State or county job? 😕 For what? So she can continue her political agenda? Go out and make more speeches and tv appearances, **and** get paid by the taxpayers? > > That is so wrong on so many levels. I’m a state employee and I sure as hell can’t get away with anything like this. Different state but the rules can’t be that different in Florida. > [http://www.wftv.com/news/ap/mother-trayvon-martin-gets-8-months-paid-leave/nN48G/](http://www.wftv.com/news/ap/mother-trayvon-martin-gets-8-months-paid-leave/nN48G/) > > **1.** This sounds like a huge misuse of the employee Catastrophic leave bank. You don’t donate hours to a person. Donated hours go into a leave bank and are closely administered. > > I’ve worked in payroll/personnel 25 years. I’m very familiar with FMLA and my employer’s catastrophic leave program. The leave bank is closely monitored and employee’s need approval to get hours from it. > > FMLA and the leave bank tie in closely. FMLA gives up to three months off. If you are out of leave hours, then its unpaid leave. The leave bank makes it possible for someone to get paid while out on FMLA. Under special circumstances we’ll extend FMLA another 3 months. Giving 6 months off. It takes a major health crises and the employy’s supervisor has to give permission to get 6 months off under FMLA. Governmental positions traditionally have never paid like the Private job market, but it always has had far better benefits. In States where benefits are determined by collective bargaining, you will find an even greater benefit package. Its not unusual to have paid leave. Typically, he amount of time you have is based on how much time you bank through lack of use, and years of service ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/109 "2012-05-14T15:16:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You keep missing the point. In this case, the money doesn’t belong to the department, it doesn’t belong to the state, and it doesn’t belong to the taxpayers. This analogy doesn’t hold. My point is that annual leave should not “belong” to someone in such a way that they can donate it to others either. What I’m saying is, if leave is a commodity like money in the US, it shouldn’t be, it should be treated like permission to do something, which generally cannot be donated. > [@](#): > > The point is that in a large organization there is unlikely to be (and there should not be) a situation in which the eight month absence of a single person is crippling. From the sound of things, plus what **Bricker** added, situations where it would cause a problem are explicitly blocked. So employers are aware that it would be a problem if leave were donated freely in any kind of organization, which was my point. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/110 "2012-05-14T15:20:39Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > What I’m saying is, if leave is a commodity like money in the US, it shouldn’t be, it should be treated like permission to do something, which generally cannot be donated. What does it matter with you if I take 8 hours off, or the guy next to me? As long as the time I donate is deducted from my account. Leave is donated by time and not dollars as well. If my hourly rate is $30 an hour, and I donate 8 hours, and my admin takes that 8 hours, it pays at $15 an hour. The organization just saved $15 dollars an hour in budget. EDIT: We are capped at 1 day donation every open enrollment. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/111 "2012-05-14T15:42:22Z")
> [@](#): > > My issue (and I’m by no means outraged) is that the rule can be abused You mean like the ‘stand your ground’ law? Yeah, that’s my issue too. So the OP is all bent because of a potential for ‘pressure’ to donate, real or imagined, without any evidence, such a thing, ever occurred. And totally skeeved by the unfounded assumption that the Mom is intent on a political agenda. Yeah, because it couldn’t just be as simple as a grief strickened Mom wanting some good to come out of her son’s death. That’s never happened before. The OP is thinly disguised political comment, presented without the ownership a spine might have provided. No need for all the dancing around, grow some ovaries and just say what you really want to say. No need for all the window dressing, to disguise it as a leave/ethics issue. And based entirely on the OP’s projection of their own fears and issues, pretty clearly. I give it a 1 out of 10, lacks a beat, and you can’t dance to it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/112 "2012-05-14T15:44:33Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > My point is that annual leave should not “belong” to someone in such a way that they can donate it to others either. > > What I’m saying is, if leave is a commodity like money in the US, it shouldn’t be, it should be treated like permission to do something, which generally cannot be donated. Why, because people have too many choices this way? This gives people the option of doing something nice for someone. What does that bother you so much? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/113 "2012-05-14T16:12:38Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > What does it matter with you if I take 8 hours off, or the guy next to me? > [@Acsenray](#): > > This gives people the option of doing something nice for someone. What does that bother you so much? It doesn’t bother me, I’m just saying it seems unfair. If the thread was about people who drink lots of coffee even though they didn’t pay into the office coffee fund, I might say “gee, that seems unfair”. That doesn’t mean I can’t sleep for thinking about it. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/114 "2012-05-14T16:12:40Z")
I didn’t see this (and my apologies up front if it was posted) but what are the requirements or limitations of giving or taking leave in Florida? For example, can I ask for leave to be donated so that I can go skiing for nine months, or is there a restriction? I’d be surprised that one could collect leave from other workers to go on a world tour for nine months, but who knows? I have heart ache with it to a minor degree because I do think she taking leave to support a political issue. This may be partially her way to grieve, but it’s not all that. But if there are no restrictions, than it’s a non-issue. The guidelines are the key to my ire, or lack thereof. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/115 "2012-05-14T16:19:05Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > It doesn’t bother me, I’m just saying it seems unfair. I’m not seeing the distinction here. Either way, you still haven’t offered any argument for _why_ it’s unfair for individuals to be able to give something to an individual. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/116 "2012-05-14T16:30:35Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > It doesn’t bother me, I’m just saying it seems unfair. > > If the thread was about people who drink lots of coffee even though they didn’t pay into the office coffee fund, I might say “gee, that seems unfair”. That doesn’t mean I can’t sleep for thinking about it. Fair enough. I am having difficulty trying to understand what is unfair about it ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/117 "2012-05-14T16:32:11Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > The OP is thinly disguised political comment, presented without the ownership a spine might have provided. No need for all the dancing around, grow some ovaries and just say what you really want to say. No need for all the window dressing, to disguise it as a leave/ethics issue. And based entirely on the OP’s projection of their own fears and issues, pretty clearly. Could someone help me connect the right-wing meme dots? I’m having a bit of brain fog in this particular case, for some reason. We’re supposed to care that she’s taking paid leave for “political reasons”… or to go to Fiji, or to join “Dancing with the Stars,” or whatever the hell she wants to do, because: a) It shows she isn’t \*really \*grieving, therefore she must not care that much about her dead son, therefore we shouldn’t either, b) It shows she’s just another low-class black trying to game the system, and we all know the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, therefore Trayvon got what he deserved, c) ??? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/118 "2012-05-14T16:34:04Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > You mean like the ‘stand your ground’ law? Yeah, that’s my issue too. > > So the OP is all bent because of a potential for ‘pressure’ to donate, real or imagined, without any evidence, such a thing, ever occurred. And totally skeeved by the unfounded assumption that the Mom is intent on a political agenda. Yeah, because it couldn’t just be as simple as a grief strickened Mom wanting some good to come out of her son’s death. That’s never happened before. > > The OP is thinly disguised political comment, presented without the ownership a spine might have provided. No need for all the dancing around, grow some ovaries and just say what you really want to say. No need for all the window dressing, to disguise it as a leave/ethics issue. And based entirely on the OP’s projection of their own fears and issues, pretty clearly. > > I give it a 1 out of 10, lacks a beat, and you can’t dance to it. So many have made this a political issue whether mom wanted it to be or not. JMHO, I believe it to be both politics and grief. I can tell you this, so short after a child of mines death, I sure wouldnt be trade marking things about the death. We all grieve differently I guess. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/119 "2012-05-14T16:35:48Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > The OP is thinly disguised political comment, presented without the ownership a spine might have provided. No need for all the dancing around, grow some ovaries and just say what you really want to say. No need for all the window dressing, to disguise it as a leave/ethics issue. And based entirely on the OP’s projection of their own fears and issues, pretty clearly. This is not The BBQ Pit and you are out of line. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/120 "2012-05-14T17:28:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m not seeing the distinction here. Either way, you still haven’t offered any argument for why it’s unfair for individuals to be able to give something to an individual. > [@dngnb8](#): > > I am having difficulty trying to understand what is unfair about it What I’ve said is that it is unfair because it distributes leave at least partially on the basis of popularity, rather than need, or an equal distribution. The counter argument has been that it’s just like donating money. And my counter to that is it isn’t, or shouldn’t be: it is permission to take a day off work and still get paid. Permissions aren’t normally tradable / donatable. * * * But thinking about it, I’ve been too hard on this scheme. In a way it’s genius: it means that instead of any upward pressure on the amount of holiday companies give, or states mandate, all the resentment goes to your colleagues. It was _their_ fault you had to come to work the day after your close relative died. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804.md?page=7)