# Trayvon Martin's mom getting 8 months paid leave. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804 "2012-05-13T21:29:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/121 "2012-05-14T17:50:32Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > What I’ve said is that it is unfair because it distributes leave at least partially on the basis of popularity, rather than need, or an equal distribution. Most Leave Plans Benefits are defined. If her reasons meet those definitions, then why shouldnt she take it? Popularity, need or equality arent a part of it. Most plans do not define that all who participate get teh exact same hours. > [@](#): > > The counter argument has been that it’s just like donating money. And my counter to that is it isn’t, or shouldn’t be: it is permission to take a day off work and still get paid. Permissions aren’t normally tradable / donatable. If they boss doesnt care, why should you? Im still having difficult with your “shouldnt be” comment. Since the donated time is deducted from my bank of hours, I dont see an issue. The employee is taxed on the earningsas well. > [@](#): > > But thinking about it, I’ve been too hard on this scheme. > In a way it’s genius: it means that instead of any upward pressure on the amount of holiday companies give, or states mandate, all the resentment goes to your colleagues. > It was _their_ fault you had to come to work the day after your close relative died. What does this have to do with donating leave? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/122 "2012-05-14T18:33:45Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > c) ??? She has a vendetta against a patriot who was exercising his Second Amendment Rights against a [del]gang-banger[/del] suspicious character. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/123 "2012-05-14T18:45:21Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Most Leave Plans Benefits are defined. If her reasons meet those definitions, then why shouldnt she take it? Popularity, need or equality arent a part of it. Most plans do not define that all who participate get teh exact same hours. I don’t get this. Clearly the plan does not stipulate 8 months+ in the case of a bereavement. So it’s either: a) I donate some of my leave, and specify who it goes to b) I donate some of my leave and an administrator or vote decides who it goes to Either of these is vulnerable to popularity being significant, particularly a). > [@](#): > > If they boss doesnt care, why should you? For the reason I said in my last post. You can choose to ignore my point but I’m not going to repeat myself. > [@](#): > > What does this have to do with donating leave? The relevance is obvious: the amount of leave you ultimately get to take, in an extreme circumstance, is partially based on how much your colleagues decided to give you. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/124 "2012-05-14T18:50:15Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > My issue was more about letting her keep a job for 8 months that she abandoned for political reasons. Even if you have leave hours on the books, its hard even getting two full weeks off for a vacation. Let alone walking away for 8 months. Paying her for that time is just unbelievable to me. > > But, its not my state and they obviously operate differently. > > I can’t even remember my last two week vacation. There’s always some scheduling conflict at work. I’m lucky to get a full week off. That’s 9 days for a trip, if you count the two weekends. I’m gonna take a wild guess that you don’t belong to a union. I’m also gonna guess that you think unions have no place in American society. Oh, the irony! ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/125 "2012-05-14T19:08:40Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I don’t get this. Clearly the plan does not stipulate 8 months+ in the case of a bereavement. > > So it’s either: > > a) I donate some of my leave, and specify who it goes to > b) I donate some of my leave and an administrator or vote decides who it goes to > > Either of these is vulnerable to popularity being significant, particularly a). She may be combining bereavement with FMLA with a sabbatical It may not be under 1 definition of approved leave. We have a lady who lost her son here on a hiking accident. He fell from Camelback Mountaiin into a crevasse. It has been more then a year, and she is still on medical leave. It runs out in 6 months. She lost him about 12 months ago. > [@](#): > > For the reason I said in my last post. You can choose to ignore my point but I’m not going to repeat myself. Im not ignoring it, I fail to see it. Your making a connection to “shouldn’t” that I just dont understand. > [@](#): > > The relevance is obvious: the amount of leave you ultimately get to take, in an extreme circumstance, is partially based on how much your colleagues decided to give you. Youre making a presumption. Where I work, leave is based on years of service. Being a professional in the Benefits field for 30 years, I would guess the amount of time she can take is outlined and based on years of service. Based on my current years of service, I can be gone 18 months on an approved leave without fear of losing my job. Currently, I have banked about 3 months of time. That doesnt mean I will automatically get compassionate leave. For instance, if I wanted to traverse the Wilds of England for 12 months, I wouldnt get compassionate leave. However, when I was doing my dads dialysis prior to his passing, that probably would have qualified. There is one more thing you may not be considering. She may be on Disability. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/126 "2012-05-14T19:27:11Z")
Very nice point. Where I work many of our long term employees have 350 or more vacation hours built up. They donate to the leave bank rather than lose it because they are close to the maximum cap. Just because you have 320 hours doesn’t mean you can skip off to a trip to Europe for 8 weeks. No supervisor would ever authorize it. You’d have to file a FMLA and get it approved. You can also be fired for abusing FMLA. If you take off two months to help a dying relative and instead take off to Aspen for a ski trip. If you get caught, you’re fired. > [@Mijin](#): > > My point is that annual leave should not “belong” to someone in such a way that they can donate it to others either. > > What I’m saying is, if leave is a commodity like money in the US, it shouldn’t be, it should be treated like permission to do something, which generally cannot be donated. > > From the sound of things, plus what **Bricker** added, situations where it would cause a problem are explicitly blocked. > So employers are aware that it would be a problem if leave were donated freely in any kind of organization, which was my point. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/127 "2012-05-14T19:52:29Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > **1.** This sounds like a huge misuse of the employee Catastrophic leave bank. You don’t donate hours to a person. Donated hours go into a leave bank and are closely administered. > [@mhendo](#): > > I work for a state institution, a university. > > We occasionally get emails from the administration about a staff or faculty member who has a severe health or life crisis. The emails contain requests for Catastrophic Leave donations, and regulations allow employees to donate unused sick or vacation hours to the person in need. These requests also outline how many hours each different type of employee at the institution is allowed to donate. > > If Sybrina Fulton’s employer has a similar mechanism in place, and individuals have, of their own free will, donated their own leave time to her, then maybe you should just mind your own goddamn business. Its donated time. She’s got a perfect right legally and morally to accept it. I’m happy she’s getting that time off to pursue her righteous agenda which involved the shooting death of her son. If we could all have as much sympathy when we lose a loved one, that would be great ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/128 "2012-05-14T21:21:55Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Add me to the set of people that finds this system distasteful. > > Allowing people to donate their leave to others means that PTO becomes proportional to a person’s popularity rather than need. > > And practically speaking, having, say, one person take a month off may well be worse for an organisation than having 20 people each take a day off; that one person might be the specialist in something. > > Just because people are voluntarily donating their leave doesn’t make it fair in every sense. I guess if you’re an unpopular asshole you better just hope your Tramatic Life Event doesn’t coincide with Cool Guy’s. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/129 "2012-05-15T05:39:43Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > What I’ve said is that it is unfair because it distributes leave at least partially on the basis of popularity, rather than need, or an equal distribution. It might be unfair if you’re an employer, but hopefully things remain skewed for the employee. Its rare that people need a lot of time, so in the rare instances where this happens, the person who needs it should be able to get it instead of being denied through some kind of possible abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/130 "2012-05-15T10:05:11Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I don’t get this. Clearly the plan does not stipulate 8 months+ in the case of a bereavement. > > So it’s either: > > a) I donate some of my leave, and specify who it goes to > b) I donate some of my leave and an administrator or vote decides who it goes to > > **Either of these is vulnerable to popularity being significant, particularly a)**. (bolding mine) Your argument here makes no sense. Individuals making choices, even based on popularity, is in no way an abuse of this system, unless you believe that individuals should not be able to make choices. Is that what you believe? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/131 "2012-05-15T11:24:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > (bolding mine) > > Your argument here makes no sense. > > Individuals making choices, even based on popularity, is in no way an abuse of this system, unless you believe that individuals should not be able to make choices. Is that what you believe? I’ve never said that it is an abuse of the system. As for whether people should have a free choice there are two points to make (which I’ve already made, but anyway): 1. A system where everyone gets a free choice does not necessarily lead to a fair situation. If people got the free choice to say which government programme their tax dollars went to, say, it would lead to a very unfair situation. Furthermore everyone consenting to be in a system, while certainly relevant, does not in itself entail that the system makes sense or is fair (probably the majority of people would consent to a tax earmarking system without appreciating why it is flawed). 2. Permissions are not normally transferable. If someone gives you permission to stay over at their house, you don’t have the right to pass that permission to a hobo you pass on the street. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/132 "2012-05-15T11:49:16Z")
No one is transferring permission to take time off. They’re transferring the actual time off. Permission was given by the supervisor. TIme off was donated. If no one had donated permission could still be given for 8 mos. of leave but it would be mostly unpaid. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/133 "2012-05-15T12:21:25Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > No one is transferring permission to take time off. They’re transferring the actual time off. Permission was given by the supervisor. TIme off was donated. If no one had donated permission could still be given for 8 mos. of leave but it would be mostly unpaid. No time gets passed: it’s a linguistic convenience. It’s implicitly the permission which is transferred. There are X working days in the year. Time off means you have the permission to spend Y of those days at home instead of at work. The total amount of time is (obviously) the same, it’s what you are allowed to do. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/134 "2012-05-15T12:46:26Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > No time gets passed: it’s a linguistic convenience. It’s implicitly the permission which is transferred. > > There are X working days in the year. Time off means you have the permission to spend Y of those days at home instead of at work. The total amount of time is (obviously) the same, it’s what you are allowed to do. So if I have 100 hours PTO, and I donate permission for 20 hours to my coworker, how many hours PTO do I have left for myself? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/135 "2012-05-15T12:58:08Z")
It is permission to spend 20 hours away from work when you would otherwise expect to be at work which has been passed. Not time itself. You disagree with this? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/136 "2012-05-15T13:22:57Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > It is permission to spend 20 hours away from work when you would otherwise expect to be at work which has been passed. Not time itself. You disagree with this? Yes, I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/137 "2012-05-15T14:04:31Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > It is permission to spend 20 hours away from work when you would otherwise expect to be at work which has been passed. Not time itself. You disagree with this? How is that significantly different from my two weeks’ paid vacation—which is actually \*permission \*to spend two weeks somewhere other than work while still collecting pay, and not a large box with a bow on it that contains two weeks? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/138 "2012-05-15T14:08:09Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Yes, I disagree. I’ll put it as clearly as I can. Let’s go back to the hobo example: Say a friend gives you permission to spend a day in their house while they are away. It would be wrong to say “OK, I have 24 hours, I’m now going to give those 24 hours to a hobo”. You have a _permission_, and permissions generally aren’t transferable. Now let’s return to PTO. Now here people _do_ talk about having X hours, spending X hours etc. This is a linguistic convenience. It’s still a permission. You’re expected to be at work every week day (say), except for public holidays. And PTO is _permission to not be at work_. If you “have” 20 days PTO, what you actually have is permission to not be at work on 20 days when you would otherwise be expected to be there. Now you could argue that this is a situation where a permission _should_ be transferable. That’s fine (though I disagree). But you won’t get very far trying to prove that you’re actually passing around lumps of time. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/139 "2012-05-15T14:11:15Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > How is that significantly different from my two weeks’ paid vacation—which is actually \*permission \*to spend two weeks somewhere other than work while still collecting pay, and not a large box with a bow on it that contains two weeks? You’re phrasing this like an objection, though we appear to be in agreement. It’s not different – I agree. And I agree that we cannot actually “give” time (though we often do so as a linguistic convenience). ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/140 "2012-05-15T14:14:30Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I’ll put it as clearly as I can. > > Let’s go back to the hobo example: > > Say a friend gives you permission to spend a day in their house while they are away. It would be wrong to say “OK, I have 24 hours, I’m now going to give those 24 hours to a hobo”. > You have a _permission_, and permissions generally aren’t transferable. > > Now let’s return to PTO. Now here people _do_ talk about having X hours, spending X hours etc. This is a linguistic convenience. It’s still a permission. You’re expected to be at work every week day (say), except for public holidays. > And PTO is _permission to not be at work_. If you “have” 20 days PTO, what you actually have is permission to not be at work on 20 days when you would otherwise be expected to be there. > > Now you could argue that this is a situation where a permission _should_ be transferable. That’s fine (though I disagree). But you won’t get very far trying to prove that you’re actually passing around lumps of time. It is not a “permission” it is a “paid benefit”. It is you who is abusing a “linguistic convenience”. Benefits are Governed by Plan Descriptions. Youre applying rules to a Benefit Plan that do not apply. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804.md?page=8)