# Trayvon Martin's mom getting 8 months paid leave. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804 "2012-05-13T21:29:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/141 "2012-05-15T14:22:57Z")
Federal and state laws define paid leave as a benefit and impose taxes and other obligations accordingly. Add to that that in many cases earned leave that isn’t used must be paid out in cash. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/142 "2012-05-15T14:29:08Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > I’m gonna take a wild guess that you don’t belong to a union. I’m also gonna guess that you think unions have no place in American society. Oh, the irony! Actually having been a member of th United Paperworkers International I am a little surprised that the rank and file go along with such an arbitrarily applied leave scheme. As a point of debate, in a collective bargaining setting I would think such a leave trading program runs counter to the goals and protections of the Union. Unless of course as **aceplace57** points out the goal is to continue to accrue leave from the employing agency despite having reached individual bankable limits. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/143 "2012-05-15T14:33:31Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Federal and state laws define paid leave as a benefit and impose taxes and other obligations accordingly. > > Add to that that in many cases earned leave that isn’t used must be paid out in cash. Interesting. If the leave then has a defined cash value (presumably the current wage rate of the earning employee), why is it not banked and distributed as such? (ex: A $30/hour employees 1 banked day provides 2 days of leave for a $15/hr employee. Or the other way it takes 2 days of the $15/hr leave for the $30/hr employee to get a days leave.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/144 "2012-05-15T14:33:57Z")
First, I can’t believe anyone sees anything wrong with this. Secondly, use of paid leave is both a monetary benefot AND permission to be absent during the period in question. She has both permission from her management (we assume) and paid hours while she’s off work (courtesy of the voluntary donations of co-workers). What is the objection?? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/145 "2012-05-15T14:35:55Z")
Not all leaves are based on permission. If one qualifies for FMLA, the employer has no choice for the established period in the paperwork. Additionally, if the Plan Document establishes specific events (Death of a defined Family Member), the leave does not need permission for the time established in the Plan Document. I have 4 days for bereavement. If I wanted more, then permission comes into play ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/146 "2012-05-15T14:42:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > First, I can’t believe anyone sees anything wrong with this. > > Secondly, use of paid leave is both a monetary benefot AND permission to be absent during the period in question. She has both permission from her management (we assume) and paid hours while she’s off work (courtesy of the voluntary donations of co-workers). > > What is the objection?? It’s not fair. Apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/147 "2012-05-15T15:06:56Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > It is not a “permission” it is a “paid benefit”. It is you who is abusing a “linguistic convenience”. Benefits are Governed by Plan Descriptions. > > Youre applying rules to a Benefit Plan that do not apply. Are “paid benefits” normally transferable? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/148 "2012-05-15T15:12:52Z")
What’s with this tempest… and what’s it doing in a tea pot? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/149 "2012-05-15T15:17:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s not fair. > > Apparently. Honestly, I had not known any benefit system existed. I think it is wonderful that fellow employees can donate their personal leave to another in need. It sounds as though there is plan administration so that tempers my initial reaction that such plans would be fraught with potential abuse. I will hold my tongue though, as I find no demonstrable evidence of such abuse and being unfamiliar with such plans I can’t speak to the level at which they are regulated. I think the sense of unfairness is just a visceral reaction. Such length of leave is uncommon and unknown to many in the workforce and at least in my case triggers an unconscious pang of jealousy. A little introspection and rational analysis and I realize no matter what the feeling, I wouldn’t want to trade places with her. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/150 "2012-05-15T15:21:52Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Are “paid benefits” normally transferable? What, you aren’t allowed to give someone else money? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/151 "2012-05-15T15:24:24Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Are “paid benefits” normally transferable? Apparently, some are. Paid Benefits are defined by a Plan Document. This document is established by the employer or a collective bargaining unit. There are boiler plate designs, but that doesnt mean changes cannot be made. Federal Guidelines govern some structure, but that doesnt limit the structure. What youre seeing in this case is not unusual. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/152 "2012-05-15T15:25:27Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What, you aren’t allowed to give someone else money? Nice word play there. But I’ve shown why it’s not the same thing at all as currency. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/153 "2012-05-15T15:26:43Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Say a friend gives you permission to spend a day in their house while they are away. That permission has no financial value. You have transferred nothing intrinsic to me. I cannot give the hobo that which not mine to give. But an employee gets PTO, which has intrinsic value. It is his to do with what he pleases; he can take the time off himself, and spend the wages as he wishes, or he can give the hours off to a coworker, who can spend the wages they earn as they wish. Your analogy fails because there is no intrinsic value in a permission alone. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/154 "2012-05-15T15:28:13Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I’ve never said that it is an abuse of the system. Then exactly what is it that you are arguing against? You seem to feel that Ms. Martin’s situation (using PTO donated by others) is somehow wrong. You use the term “vulnerable”, but you then say that you don’t mean “vulnerable to abuse”. In what way do you feel that it is “vulnerable”? “Vulnerable” to what? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/155 "2012-05-15T15:29:40Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Nice word play there. But I’ve shown why it’s not the same thing at all as currency. No, you haven’t _shown_ it. You’ve merely asserted it. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/156 "2012-05-15T15:33:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > You seem to feel that Ms. Martin’s situation (using PTO donated by others) is somehow wrong. You use the term “vulnerable”, but you then say that you don’t mean “vulnerable to abuse”. In what way do you feel that it is “vulnerable”? “Vulnerable” to what? In the exact sentence I assume you’re talking about I said “vulnerable to popularity being significant”. It’s pretty obvious what I mean by that: a popularity contest. IOW the system itself is broken, not the system is being abused. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/157 "2012-05-15T15:37:06Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, you haven’t _shown_ it. You’ve merely asserted it. I have given several examples of why it’s not like currency. For example I illustrated that from the company’s point of view it is not the same thing if one person takes 20 days versus 20 people taking 1 day: that’s a ramification that obviously doesn’t apply to movement of cash. And, tacitly, there is awareness of this built into the system (because it may require approval by a supervisor, there may be limitations etc). It would be a strange position indeed to claim that this is, or should be treated like, currency. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/158 "2012-05-15T15:38:37Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What, you aren’t allowed to give someone else money? Sure, but that isn’t what is happening. If it was it wouldn’t be a day for day transfer. As a side note, it would be interesting to know how this balances out. Anyone know of any studies? Off the cuff I would guess the transfers are typically downward to assist employees with less tenure and accrued leave, so they net a cost savings. However as you pointed out, some long term employees use the system as a means to somewhat circumvent personal accrual caps. Is this prevalent? I’m guessing it is a small percentage though. Seems to me this system probably results in a net reduction in benefit costs. Interesting… think it is time to put a proposal together for my employer. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/159 "2012-05-15T15:38:49Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > In the exact sentence I assume you’re talking about I said “vulnerable to popularity being significant”. It’s pretty obvious what I mean by that: a popularity contest. > IOW the system itself is broken, not the system is being abused. If that’s what you meant, you’ve failed utterly to convince me (and seemingly anyone else) that your argument makes any sense or that your conclusion is supported by any rational assessment of the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/160 "2012-05-15T15:48:12Z")
It most definitely is not currency. If it were the plan would be assured of resulting a net loss due to administration costs. Now a public agency might put up with this, and some Unions might support it if the company bears the admin costs, but it would be exceedingly rare in the private sector. However some googling seems to indicate it is a prevalent and growing trend. It is not an equal value exchange. It is appealing because it is not dollar for dollar and because the economics of it are favorable to the employer as well as the employee. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804.md?page=9)