# Trayvon Martin's mom getting 8 months paid leave. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804 "2012-05-13T21:29:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/161 "2012-05-15T16:05:12Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If that’s what you meant, you’ve failed utterly to convince me (and seemingly anyone else) that your argument makes any sense or that your conclusion is supported by any rational assessment of the facts. If it’s an irrational argument you can point out what’s irrational about it. To summarise what I’m saying: 1. Not every system where everyone has a free choice is necessarily fair. Choice and fairness / equality are not the same thing (as illustrated by the tax example I gave). 2. A system where PTO can be transferred is one such system. It could mean e.g. that Mr Popular gets ample time to grieve the death of his grandfather, but Mr Shy has to come straight back to work following the death of his family in a car crash. (Some would argue that everyone gets sufficient time but some people get extra time as a “bonus”. But it would be strange for people to donate to such a system. People give some of their PTO because they feel other people _need_ it). 3. PTO is not inherently a fungible commodity – it is flawed to equate it to currency or to claim that time itself is something that can be passed around. The best description of it is as a permission, so there is no inherent reason why it necessarily must be transferable. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/162 "2012-05-15T16:08:47Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The best description of it is as a permission… No, it isn’t. A permission has no intrinsic value, while PTO obviously does. Fail. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/163 "2012-05-15T16:28:20Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Sure, but that isn’t what is happening. If it was it wouldn’t be a day for day transfer. > > As a side note, it would be interesting to know how this balances out. Anyone know of any studies? Off the cuff I would guess the transfers are typically downward to assist employees with less tenure and accrued leave, so they net a cost savings. However as you pointed out, some long term employees use the system as a means to somewhat circumvent personal accrual caps. Is this prevalent? I’m guessing it is a small percentage though. Seems to me this system probably results in a net reduction in benefit costs. Interesting… think it is time to put a proposal together for my employer. Where I work, we have approx 4700 employees that can benefit from a Leave Donation. Our leave programs are based on years of service. They range from 6 months, to 3 years of job protection. This isnt paid time, it is job protection time. Employee benefits can be continued via this time, but the time runs concurrent with COBRA clocks as well. Any person can apply for Compassionate Leave assistance. Important note here Compassionate Leave doesnt extend your leave time off. It extends paid time during your leave time off. One may qualify for 3 years of job protection, but only have 3 months of paid time. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/164 "2012-05-15T16:31:44Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > 1. PTO is not inherently a fungible commodity – it is flawed to equate it to currency or to claim that time itself is something that can be passed around. The best description of it is as a permission, so there is no inherent reason why it necessarily must be transferable. It’s not a permission , at least not in any job I’ve had. Because every job I’ve had of “approved leave without pay”. The approval is the permission to be absent from work and payment is a separate issue. So Mr Shy and Mr Popular\* don’t necessarily get different amounts of time off- they may get paid for more or less time, but that’s no different than coworkers taking up a colections for Mr Popular and not doing so for Mr Shy - I don’t know about your workplace, but in my workplaces it would be more accurate to describe them as Mr Well-liked and Mr Can’t ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/165 "2012-05-15T16:33:28Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > 1. PTO is not inherently a fungible commodity – it is flawed to equate it to currency or to claim that time itself is something that can be passed around. The best description of it is as a permission, so there is no inherent reason why it necessarily must be transferable. Incorrect. You can insist all you wish, but, youre wrong here. It is a fungible commodity. It has a cost assignment. Is is applied to departmental budget. It is transferable, has an intrinsic value. Just because you insist it isnt, doesnt change the fact. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/166 "2012-05-15T16:40:15Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > As a side note, it would be interesting to know how this balances out. Anyone know of any studies? Off the cuff I would guess the transfers are typically downward to assist employees with less tenure and accrued leave, so they net a cost savings. I don’t know about any studies, but I do know that at my workplaces, it actually seems to be people with more tenure and accrued leave who benefit. There are few requests from relatively new employees with little leave time compared to long-term employees ( who tend to be older) with catastrophic medical problems ( strokes, heart attacks , etc ) who have already used up four of five months of their own accrued leave. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/167 "2012-05-15T16:41:48Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Incorrect. You can insist all you wish, but, youre wrong here. > > It is a fungible commodity. It has a cost assignment. Is is applied to departmental budget. > > It is transferable, has an intrinsic value. > > Just because you insist it isnt, doesnt change the fact. Actually several people a few posts ago agreed that it is _not_ like currency. And what response do you have to my point that repercussions like 1 guy being off for 20 days being different to 20 guys taking a day off shows that it is not a simple tradable asset? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/168 "2012-05-15T16:44:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Mijin** > 3. PTO is not inherently a fungible commodity – it is flawed to equate it to currency or to claim that time itself is something that can be passed around. The best description of it is as a permission, so there is no inherent reason why it necessarily must be transferable. It’s not a permission , at least not in any job I’ve had. Because every job I’ve had of “approved leave without pay”. The approval is the permission to be absent from work and payment is a separate issue. So Mr Shy and Mr Popular\* don’t necessarily get different amounts of time off- they may get paid for more or less time, but that’s no different than coworkers taking up a collection for Mr Popular and not doing so for Mr Shy - I don’t know about your workplace, but in my workplaces it would be more accurate to describe them as Mr Well-liked and Mr Can’t Get Along with Anyone. We don’t really have people who are “popular” for no reason. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/169 "2012-05-15T17:20:03Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Actually several people a few posts ago agreed that it is _not_ like currency. The hours have a budget line. Thus, a tangible $$ figure is assigned to them > [@](#): > > And what response do you have to my point that repercussions like 1 guy being off for 20 days being different to 20 guys taking a day off shows that it is not a simple tradable asset? 20 days is covered by FMLA. Thus, compassionate leave is not an issue. That being said, lets address it any way I would say it depends on the staffing in the department. My dept (compensation/benefits) we currently have numerous people off for far more then 20 days. We are picking up the works and still getting it done. There is no “loss” associated with that time in a monetary form. One of those people are being supported by compassionate leave because their personal leave time did not equal the time off. Additionally, that person isnt the issue, her husband (Major CVA) is. So she isnt getting LTD. She has 3 months left of job protection at which time, she has to decide to either retire, come back to work, or figure something else out or her job will be replaced The time was traded without negative impact. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/170 "2012-05-15T17:24:43Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I wish you had started this in the Pit because I agree and my reaction is a lot nastier. What happened to her son is tragic, but a lot of people have lost family members to gunshot wounds and not gotten nine months of leave (or even nine days). Hopefully, there is more to this story than the article presents and she really isn’t getting all that paid leave. I got 3 days. Wasn’t a gunshot wound but that’s immaterial. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/171 "2012-05-15T17:36:53Z")
If I get health insurance at my job, can I give it to my brother in law who needs it more than me? It is a “paid benefit” after all, and why should the state care? Can he drive my company car or use my company cell phone? I agree with an earlier poster that if a company can go without the services of someone for 8 months, they can go without forever. Seems like a job that the taxpayers are shelling out $70k/yr plus benefits that isn’t necessary. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/172 "2012-05-15T17:37:16Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I got 3 days. **Wasn’t a gunshot wound but that’s immaterial.** I disagree Im guessing, but I bet your 3 days was for bereavement. She probably had a similar time (I get 4 days) After that, she may be on medical leave for mental stress. This is an approved leave reason. I dont think it is a stretch to presume she is under mental stress considering how public this case is. So I would ask you, does your situation equal the same media, political, message board storm where your child is derided for being shot? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/173 "2012-05-15T17:39:20Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > If I get health insurance at my job, can I give it to my brother in law who needs it more than me? It is a “paid benefit” after all, and why should the state care? > > Can he drive my company car or use my company cell phone? > > I agree with an earlier poster that if a company can go without the services of someone for 8 months, they can go without forever. Seems like a job that the taxpayers are shelling out $70k/yr plus benefits that isn’t necessary. Strawman. Compassionate leave donation programs usually dont work that way. It is contributed to a bank, and people apply to the bank. Burn strawman burn. Additionally, Health Insurance \<\> Leave Time ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/174 "2012-05-15T17:41:46Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > The hours have a budget line. Thus, a tangible $$ figure is assigned to them OK, what is that dollar value? Since it has already been revealed that it’s irrelevant the salary of the person taking / giving PTO; it’s just PTO which is pooled. > [@](#): > > 20 days is covered by FMLA. Thus, compassionate leave is not an issue. That dodges the issue. The point was 1 person taking 20 days may be better or worse for the organisation than 20 people taking 1 day. Agree? > [@](#): > > I would say it depends on the staffing in the department. My dept (compensation/benefits) we currently have numerous people off for far more then 20 days. We are picking up the works and still getting it done. There is no “loss” associated with that time in a monetary form. Great. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/175 "2012-05-15T17:52:30Z")
A couple of questions for those outraged about this for whatever reason: Are you just taking issue with this particular occasion of PTO pool use? Or do you object to the concept altogether on principle? If you don’t object to the idea of PTO pooling in general, then why is this particular occasion so distasteful to you? Also, for those saying that if someone is off work for an extended period of time that this proves that their position is not needed and should be eliminated, do you think the same thing any time a woman takes off several months for maternity leave? I mean, if her workplace can survive without her for a few months, then why not just eliminate that job too, right? She is obviously not necessary for her workplace to function, if she can be gone for several months with no issues, right? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/176 "2012-05-15T18:30:32Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > OK, what is that dollar value? Since it has already been revealed that it’s irrelevant the salary of the person taking / giving PTO; it’s just PTO which is pooled. The budget is assigned to each department. Example Our compassionate leave program allows anyone to donate 1 - 2 days a year at our open enrollment. If I donate 2 days (16 hours) at $20 an hour, then $320 of budget is transferred to the compassionate leave bank. > [@](#): > > That dodges the issue. The point was 1 person taking 20 days may be better or worse for the organisation than 20 people taking 1 day. Agree? LOL, so applying reality is a dodge? Yes, it may be better or it may be worse. That in no way supports your position as a negative impact. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/177 "2012-05-15T18:43:37Z")
This is not something that is handled the same way everywhere. Leave time has a value in my company. I can request to be paid cash at the end of the year instead of taking leave. I can donate leave to a specific person. When I do that they take my salary times the number of hours I want to donate and divide that product by the salary of the recipient. It is not a day-for-a-day it is paid-time-equivalent. When I worked, I earned a salary and had my leave balance increase. My leave balance is a liablility to the company and there is no net change in their liablility when I donate. Does anyone know how it works in the specific case that is causing outrage. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/178 "2012-05-15T20:03:38Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > Does anyone know how it works in the specific case that is causing outrage. I am under the impression that it is a day for a donated day. However that may be information I picked up erroneously in this thread. In your companies case I agree the benefit being traded is functionally equivalent to cash. In **dngnb8** ’s case I haven’t seen it described the same. They have shown that a cash value is assigned when it is added to the bank, but not really explained what happens at dispersal. If I earn $40/hr and draw from the pool that **dngnb8** contributed 16 hours at a value of $320 to, is there only 8 hours available to me? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/179 "2012-05-15T20:17:38Z")
Where else can someone take off for 8 months and still have a job upon returning? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804/180 "2012-05-15T20:28:21Z")
I have a Canadian cousin who got nearly 18 months’ maternity leave for each of her two children, combining government-mandated leave and employment contract-based leave. A big chunk of that was paid leave from the employer, her union kicked in pay for a few months, and the remainder was without pay. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trayvon-martins-mom-getting-8-months-paid-leave/621804.md?page=10)