# Treatment of Palestinians ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544 "2013-03-21T15:56:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/1 "2013-03-21T15:56:21Z")
… “is not fair,” Obama said in Jerusalem. Breaking news on [CNN.com](http://CNN.com), no less. > **[Obama: 'Peace is possible,' but see the world as Palestinians do | CNN Politics](https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/21/politics/obama-mideast-visit/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)** > > President Obama calls on Israelis to see the world through the eyes of Palestinians in a speech in Jerusalem. It takes balls to say something like this on a visit to Israel and their, and only theirs, Jerusalem. The overall symbolic is uncanny. But it won’t change anything. By now everyone knows that Obama’s role is to offer words instead of deeds and anyone who thinks this means “something” is falling for it big time. And I understand - what the heck can I do? Let’s get ready for outrage in Israel and Israel II (US) media with certain characters calling this an outright betrayal, an invitation for bombs to start falling and approval of Iran’s claims. All the while nothing will change. Well, perhaps as soon as he leaves Israel will announce another illegal settlement and report on three home-made grenades hitting Israel “proper” wink-wink ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/2 "2013-03-21T16:17:07Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > The overall symbolic is uncanny. You mean, the fact that two rockets were indiscriminately launched at civilians by Palestinians as Obama arrived? Or you’re just upset about the fact that Israel’s capital is Jerusalem? > [@](#): > > Hours before the speech on the second day of a Middle East swing, Obama’s first trip of his second term and first visit as president to Israel, two rockets fired from Palestinian territories caused no injuries or major damage but served as a symbolic welcome to his appearance. > [@newcomer](#): > > But it won’t change anything. Especially if you’re wilfully ignorant and facts aren’t entering into the equation int he first place. [Opinion polls in Israel consistently show a majority supports a two state solution.](http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=251311) That isn’t the issue. But you’d have to know about the situation to understand what’s going on. You should try it, just for a change of pace. > [@newcomer](#): > > Let’s get ready for outrage in Israel and Israel II (US) media Please elaborate on your implication that the US free press is somehow subservient to or wholly owned by Israel. You’ve also argued in the past that you believe that the Mossad was connected to 9/11. Were the Mossad’s conspiratorial actions with regard to 9/11 at all connected to the Zionist domination of US media? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/3 "2013-03-21T17:16:20Z")
I have several Israeli media sites open on other tabs. So far, I haven’t noted any particularly unusual levels of outrage. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/4 "2013-03-21T18:04:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I have several Israeli media sites open on other tabs. So far, I haven’t noted any particularly unusual levels of outrage. Does that mean no outrage or the outrage is limited to “well, he shouldn’t have said _that_”? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/5 "2013-03-21T18:08:43Z")
The outrage is generally from the Usual Suspects - you know, the commentators who’ll criticize anything Obama says. You may not have them in the United States. In general, people see to agree that the President is basically saying what he always says, although he’s being particularly nice and eloquent in how he’s saying it. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/6 "2013-03-21T18:10:02Z")
The OP’s summary of Obama’s remarks as “treatment of Palestinians is not fair” isn’t very accurate. Here’s the full quote: > [@](#): > > “Put yourself in their shoes – look at the world through their eyes,” he said. "It is not fair that a Palestinian child cannot grow up in a state of her own, and lives with the presence of a foreign army that controls the movements of her parents every single day. It is not just when settler violence against Palestinians goes unpunished. It is not right to prevent Palestinians from farming their lands; to restrict a student’s ability to move around the West Bank; or to displace Palestinian families from their home. He’s critiquing specific acts, not a blanket condemnation like “treatment of Palestinians is not fair.” All in all, Obama’s remarks are a fairly vanilla urge toward a peaceful two-state solution; there’s not much controversy to be mined. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/7 "2013-03-21T18:11:28Z")
I hope this will lead to action on the part of Obama to rectify that unfairness. For too long has the status quo been to just let the Israeli’s run roughshod over the Palestinians. We can’t force them into peace, but we can throw our support for one side. I hope that before Obama’s term ends, he will say that Israel does not have the right to treat the Palestinians like animals. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/8 "2013-03-21T18:12:01Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The outrage is generally from the Usual Suspects - you know, the commentators who’ll criticize anything Obama says. You may not have them in the United States. OK - that was pretty funny. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/9 "2013-03-21T18:25:49Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I hope this will lead to action on the part of Obama to rectify that unfairness. For too long has the status quo been to just let the Israeli’s run roughshod over the Palestinians. We can’t force them into peace, but we can throw our support for one side. I hope that before Obama’s term ends, he will say that Israel does not have the right to treat the Palestinians like animals. Obama’s support is where it belongs, with a peaceful transition to two states. > [@](#): > > “You are not alone,” Obama said in both English and Hebrew, prompting a standing ovation when he declared that “those who adhere to the ideology of rejecting Israel’s right to exist might as well reject the Earth beneath them and the sky above, because Israel is not going anywhere.” > > … > > “Given the demographics west of the Jordan River, the only way for Israel to endure and thrive as a Jewish and democratic state is through the realization of an independent and viable Palestine,” Obama said. "Given the frustration in the international community, Israel must reverse an undertow of isolation. And given the march of technology, the only way to truly protect the Israeli people is through the absence of war – because no wall is high enough, and no Iron Dome is strong enough, to stop every enemy from inflicting harm. " > > … > > Arab states must seek normalized relations with Israel, and Palestinians must “recognize that Israel will be a Jewish state, and that Israelis have the right to insist upon their security,” Obama also said. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/10 "2013-03-21T18:30:36Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Obama’s support is where it belongs, with a peaceful transition to two states. I think we all want peace, except the Israeli’s who have had the upper hand for a while and believe they don’t have to give up anything. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/11 "2013-03-21T18:46:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The outrage is generally from the Usual Suspects - you know, the commentators who’ll criticize anything Obama says. You may not have them in the United States. _golf clap_ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/12 "2013-03-21T18:47:53Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I think we all want peace, except the Israeli’s who have had the upper hand for a while and believe they don’t have to give up anything. Do you think the Palestinians who fired the rockets a few hours before the Obama speech want peace? The trouble with looking at things thru Palestinian eyes is that too often, you wind up looking down a gunsight. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/13 "2013-03-21T18:56:15Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I think we all want peace, except the Israeli’s who have had the upper hand for a while and believe they don’t have to give up anything. Not so, much of the Palestinian leadership wants Israel to not exist; which rather precludes peaceful coexistence. Check out the [Fatah Constitution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#Constitution) sometime, or the [Hamas Charter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter). ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/14 "2013-03-21T19:07:17Z")
Don’t confuse Yog’s ideology with facts. He knows Israel’s the Badguy and that’s all there is to it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/15 "2013-03-21T19:51:53Z")
I seriously doubt this will change anything. Every US President since the first President Bush has made similar comments and under Reagan the US actually announced they were willing officially recognize the PLO and establish official diplomatic relations with them following Arafat’s famous 1988 speech in front of the UN where he accepted UN resolution 242 and recognized Israel which caused a hissy fit amongst the Israelis. Sadly enough, Arafat withdrew his statement when Shamir refused to negotiate with him. In the end, I don’t think either the Palestinian leadership or the Israeli leadership really sees a point in making any such compromises if for no other reason than Netanyahu doesn’t want to become Ehud Barak and neither Abbas nor Fayyed have any desire to be the next Sadat. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/16 "2013-03-21T21:20:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you think the Palestinians who fired the rockets a few hours before the Obama speech want peace? Yes I do. Do you think the Interior Minister authorizing settlements while Biden was there on a friendly trip want peace? With regards to the Palestinians, I think they are mostly powerless and frightened, and you lash out when you feel that way. They are wrong to do so, but I believe they would want and get more out of peace than the Israeli’s, who, let’s face it, have no pressing need to alter the current state of affairs. What is it to someone like Netanyahu to press for peace, what would he get out of it except some of his own countrymen hating him for giving up Israeli land, or handshakes from foreign dignitaries who can’t vote for him? It is entirely in Israel’s interest to either eliminate the Palestinians through encroachment or force than to give up possession of land and capital they already control > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Not so, much of the Palestinian leadership wants Israel to not exist; which rather precludes peaceful coexistence. Check out the [Fatah Constitution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#Constitution) sometime, or the [Hamas Charter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter). Let me guess, they say that they will not tolerate Israel and want to drive it into the sea? Sort of the same thing when Israel calls itself a Jewish state, as opposed to an ethnically neutral one. It has to be Jewish, you see, or else! Good thing Israel doesn’t really have a constitution to pick apart or someone might actually be able to point to their hypocrisy! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/17 "2013-03-21T21:32:41Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Let me guess, they say that they will not tolerate Israel and want to drive it into the sea? Sort of the same thing when Israel calls itself a Jewish state, as opposed to an ethnically neutral one. It has to be Jewish, you see, or else! I don’t see how that’s comparable to a document that treats The Protocols of Zion as a historical document and calls for committing genocide against the Jews. Beyond that, while I’m not a fan of blood and soil nationalism, Israel is hardly the only ethnically-based state in the world. Many if not most countries in Europe, most notably Germany, are such as is nearby Turkey. > [@](#): > > Good thing Israel doesn’t really have a constitution to pick apart or someone might actually be able to point to their hypocrisy! Er… Israel does. Haven’t you heard of Israel’s Base Laws? The question isn’t meant to be snarky but I believe they’ve been discussed before on multiple threads. And yes, one can find much in them that many would consider hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/18 "2013-03-21T21:52:56Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Do you think the Palestinians who fired the rockets a few hours before the Obama speech want peace? [/QUOTE] > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Yes I do. This is one of those exchanges that speaks for itself. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/19 "2013-03-21T22:24:29Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Yes I do. Do you think the Interior Minister authorizing settlements while Biden was there on a friendly trip want peace? With regards to the Palestinians, I think they are mostly powerless and frightened, and you lash out when you feel that way. They are wrong to do so, but I believe they would want and get more out of peace than the Israeli’s, who, let’s face it, have no pressing need to alter the current state of affairs. What is it to someone like Netanyahu to press for peace, what would he get out of it except some of his own countrymen hating him for giving up Israeli land, or handshakes from foreign dignitaries who can’t vote for him? It is entirely in Israel’s interest to either eliminate the Palestinians through encroachment or force than to give up possession of land and capital they already control. Then why did they offer Palestinian statehood in 2000 at Camp David? If the Israelis have nothing to gain from peace (which is absurd) and refuse to give up land, why did they offer [exactly that?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_2000_Summit_between_Palestinians_and_Israel#Territory) If the Palestinians really were desperate for peace, they a) would have taken this offer, b) would stop electing representatives who openly wish to destroy Israel, and c) would stop attacking Israel. > [@YogSothoth](#): > > Let me guess, they say that they will not tolerate Israel and want to drive it into the sea? Sort of the same thing when Israel calls itself a Jewish state, as opposed to an ethnically neutral one. It has to be Jewish, you see, or else! Good thing Israel doesn’t really have a constitution to pick apart or someone might actually be able to point to their hypocrisy! You have stretched “sort of the same thing” past the breaking point, there. Israel has offered a Palestinian state; the Palestinians have offered to destroy Israel. One of these things is not like the other… ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/20 "2013-03-21T22:32:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Then why did they offer Palestinian statehood in 2000 at Camp David? If the Israelis have nothing to gain from peace (which is absurd) and refuse to give up land, why did they offer [exactly that?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_2000_Summit_between_Palestinians_and_Israel#Territory). That was a completely different Israeli government led by the Labor Party. The current Israeli PM, Netanyahu and the Likud Party IIRC openly spoke out against and criticized Barak’s offer. > [@](#): > > If the Palestinians really were desperate for peace, they a) would have taken this offer, “The Palestinians” are also no longer led by the same government. Yasser Arafat, the guy who said no died years ago. By contrast, Abbas has said that he thinks Arafat should have taken the offer. Unfortunately the offer is no longer on the table and unlikely to be back on the table anytime soon. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544.md?page=2)