# Treatment of Palestinians ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544 "2013-03-21T15:56:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/21 "2013-03-21T22:33:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t see how that’s comparable to a document that treats The Protocols of Zion as a historical document and calls for committing genocide against the Jews. I think that one side makes their views more palatable by wrapping it in the raiment of more politically correct language and one doesn’t. The end result, and the goal, is the same: an ethnically and/or religiously homogenous state with the opponents marginalized or gone > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Beyond that, while I’m not a fan of blood and soil nationalism, Israel is hardly the only ethnically-based state in the world. > > Many if not most countries in Europe, most notably Germany, are such as is nearby Turkey. Don’t misunderstand me. If a state is de facto homogenous, I have no problems with that. But I doubt, and you can prove me wrong if I am, that Germany tries hard to be a homeland for those ethnically Germanic tribes that used to run the area a few thousand years ago, and racially profiles those who are not. Israel’s stance is that everyone has to accept them as a Jewish state, and that it must remain so, and its doing everything it can to maintain that > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… Israel does. Haven’t you heard of Israel’s Base Laws? > > The question isn’t meant to be snarky but I believe they’ve been discussed before on multiple threads. > > And yes, one can find much in them that many would consider hypocritical. Can you link them? I don’t know if they have a Constitution, I googled it and read that there were efforts to create one, but one was never created. It mentioned the Base Laws and of course I understand that a country like that has to have some type of political article they refer to, but I didn’t read much more into that. In response to your above statement, yes, I do find it trouble that Hamas still has that “wipe the Jews” thing in it, as far as I know. But Israel is too strong and powerful. I pay about as much attention to that as the Texas governor saying its ok to secede. Its not going to happen and people using it as some kind of “ah ha!” moment is disingenuous. Ultimately, whatever is in their charter, Israel has to either deal with or eliminate the likes of Hamas and Fatah. There is no way around it. That’s why I don’t really care for the excuses. Israel, as the one with the power in the region, needs to do something to solve this humanitarian crisis. > [@Shodan](#): > > This is one of those exchanges that speaks for itself. > > Regards, > Shodan I see conservatives are still taking quotes out of context and quoting just the part that supports them. I see no reason to engage you anymore. Intellectual dishonesty does no one any favors :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/22 "2013-03-21T22:37:59Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > they say that they will not tolerate Israel and want to drive it into the sea? Sort of the same thing when Israel calls itself a Jewish state, as opposed to an ethnically neutral one. In much the same way as oranges are hand grenades. It’s interesting, of course, that you evidently actually see genocidal ambitions as equivalent to the Jews having self determination. Of course, all that’s required for Israel to remain the Jewish State is for the Law of Return to remain on the books. Not sure that’s quiiiiiite equal to genocide, but I’m sure reasonable people can disagree about such things, right Yog? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/23 "2013-03-21T22:55:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That was a completely different Israeli government led by the Labor Party. The current Israeli PM, Netanyahu and the Likud Party IIRC openly spoke out against and criticized Barak’s offer. > > “The Palestinians” are also no longer led by the same government. Yasser Arafat, the guy who said no died years ago. By contrast, Abbas has said that he thinks Arafat should have taken the offer. > > Unfortunately the offer is no longer on the table and unlikely to be back on the table anytime soon. This is true. I didn’t get the feeling that **YogSosoth** was speaking only of post-2000 events; if so, disregard my remarks. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/24 "2013-03-21T22:58:10Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Don’t misunderstand me. If a state is de facto homogenous, I have no problems with that. But I doubt, and you can prove me wrong if I am, that Germany tries hard to be a homeland for those ethnically Germanic tribes that used to run the area a few thousand years ago, and racially profiles those who are not. Israel’s stance is that everyone has to accept them as a Jewish state, and that it must remain so, and its doing everything it can to maintain that. Like most European countries citizenship is acquired(until recently) only through jus sanguinis(by blood) as opposed to being born there. The American model of granting citizenship to anyone born there is the exception not the norm. There are quite literally millions of people living in Germany who were the children and in some case grandchildren of gasterbeiters(guest workers) who aren’t citizens solely because their parents weren’t ethnic Germans and because Germany doesn’t like the idea of all these “foreigners”(most of whom are from the Middle East) becoming Germans. Beyond that, Germany is famous for it’s Aussiedler laws granting citizenship to the descendants of ethnic Germans throughout Europe, I.E. the Baltic States, including those who never even had relatives from “Germany”(keep in mind ethnic Germans until after WWII were spread throughout Europe. And yes, Germany has always viewed itself as the homeland of the German people(\*Deutschland \*means “land of the Germans”) Now personally I’d rather Germany become an ethnically neutral state like Canada or the US but the Germans themselves are strongly against that. Similarly, Turkey is very much set up as a “Turkish State” in a country where roughly 20-25% of the population aren’t Turks. Israel is hardly alone in the world in being an ethnically based state. > [@](#): > > Can you link them? I don’t know if they have a Constitution, I googled it and read that there were efforts to create one, but one was never created. It mentioned the Base Laws and of course I understand that a country like that has to have some type of political article they refer to, but I didn’t read much more into that. [http://www.knesset.gov.il/description/eng/eng\_mimshal\_yesod1.htm](http://www.knesset.gov.il/description/eng/eng_mimshal_yesod1.htm) And yes, according to the Israeli Supreme Court they function as a Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/25 "2013-03-22T15:59:01Z")
Anyway, if there is going to be genuine peace as opposed to say the absence of war and they want to get most Palestinians to support a two state solution, then all the major groups involved are going to have to do a much better job of convincing the Palestinians in the occupied territories that a two state solution would lead to an economic boost and an improvement in their standard of living. As it is, the Palestinians in the West Bank now just look at Gaza which is nominally at least “unoccupied” and they don’t see any evidence that things have gotten better for the Gazans. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544/26 "2013-03-22T18:51:23Z")
Yep, Obama denounces the treatment of the Palestinians all right: > [@](#): > > [From Obama’s speech in Ramallah:](http://www.haaretz.com/news/obama-visits-israel/full-text-of-president-obama-s-speech-in-ramallah-1.511206) > > …I want to pay tribute to President Abbas and Prime Minister Fayyad for their courage, for their tenacity, and for their commitment to building the institutions upon which a lasting peace and security will depend. > > I would point out that all this stands in stark contrast to the misery and repression that so many Palestinians continue to confront in Gaza — because Hamas refuses to renounce violence; because Hamas cares more about enforcing its own rigid dogmas than allowing Palestinians to live freely; and because too often it focuses on tearing Israel down rather than building Palestine up. We saw the continuing threat from Gaza again overnight, with the rockets that targeted Sderot. We condemn this violation of the important cease-fire that protects both Israelis and Palestinians — a violation that Hamas has a responsibility to prevent… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treatment-of-palestinians/653544.md?page=1)