# Treis, no means no. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556 "2013-04-13T01:07:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/261 "2013-04-15T00:36:23Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I understand that this is essentially gladiatorial combat at this point and it doesn’t matter what it’s about, but for the record it seems like everything **pancakes** is talking about by now is a total non sequitur. People are arguing about it with him because it’s stupid, but it doesn’t have anything to do with anything. > > There’s not an argument going on about whether there’s a difference between forcible penetration and a kiss that goes on too long, or whether it’s hotter to get assaulted by a chick if you’re a chick, or whatever. That’s just some bullshit **pancakes** started talking about for some reason after **Lamia** posted that study. It doesn’t fucking matter whether **pancakes** would feel differently if I was all up in his grill trying to put the moves on instead of a woman (which he would, because I gets down for mine), or whether there’s a fictional person out there who thinks there’s no difference between trying to slip a little tongue into it vs. grabbing his joint. It doesn’t matter because the fucking point is he would want it to stop, and if he couldn’t make it stop it would be awful. And if he didn’t want it and said he didn’t want it, that’s the end of that story, and the end of his culpability. And he’s never had to think about that, and because he’s never had to, he doesn’t. He is refusing even now to do it. It takes ten seconds, if you take it seriously, to realize how fucking terrible that situation is. That was **miss elizabeth** ’s point. Thank you so fucking much for this post. Sometimes I feel like I’m reading and writing in English, but my posts get translated or something after I type them because people just keep missing the point. i now see I was clear, and that I am being willfully misunderstood. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/262 "2013-04-15T00:40:16Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I understand that this is essentially gladiatorial combat at this point and it doesn’t matter what it’s about, but for the record it seems like everything **pancakes** is talking about by now is a total non sequitur. People are arguing about it with him because it’s stupid, but it doesn’t have anything to do with anything. > > There’s not an argument going on about whether there’s a difference between forcible penetration and a kiss that goes on too long, or whether it’s hotter to get assaulted by a chick if you’re a chick, or whatever. That’s just some bullshit **pancakes** started talking about for some reason after **Lamia** posted that study. It doesn’t fucking matter whether **pancakes** would feel differently if I was all up in his grill trying to put the moves on instead of a woman (which he would, because I gets down for mine), or whether there’s a fictional person out there who thinks there’s no difference between trying to slip a little tongue into it vs. grabbing his joint. It doesn’t matter because the fucking point is he would want it to stop, and if he couldn’t make it stop it would be awful. And if he didn’t want it and said he didn’t want it, that’s the end of that story, and the end of his culpability. And he’s never had to think about that, and because he’s never had to, he doesn’t. He is refusing even now to do it. It takes ten seconds, if you take it seriously, to realize how fucking terrible that situation is. That was **miss elizabeth** ’s point. Bless you, **Jimmy Chitwood**. You’re absolutely right. Where the hell did that tangent even come from? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/263 "2013-04-15T00:42:05Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Bless you, **Jimmy Chitwood**. You’re absolutely right. Where the hell did that tangent even come from? He’s kind of amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/264 "2013-04-15T00:42:18Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > This thread is so disturbing that I’m coming out of lurking. Let me rewrite some of Lamia’s post in more digestible bites. > > - 37% of respondents agreed that they had, on at least one occasion, said “no” to sex with a man when they actually did want to have sex. > > Of these: > > - 83% are actually recalling encounters where they initially did not want to have sex but then changed their minds after some time had passed (other encounters) and then explicitely said yes. > > - 40% who explicitely said yes in the SAME encounter were with a man they had been dating for some time and were at a evolving point in their relationship. There are a couple of mistakes here, so I fear I may have summarized the study’s findings in a less than clear manner. I want to clear that up just so there’s no confusion. It’s correct that in this study 37% of respondents agreed that they had, on at least one occasion, said “no” to sex with a man when they actually did want to have sex. For clarity, I’ll call these women “Group A”. The researchers felt that, based on the detailed descriptions of the encounters and their own motivations that were provided by the respondents, 83% of Group A were actually describing an encounter where they changed their minds about wanting to have sex. The researchers suggested that their initial question about whether the women had ever said “no” when they wanted to have sex didn’t require respondents to think carefully enough about the sequence of events, and that many were thinking of dates where they’d said “no” and then _later_ wanted to have sex. 40% of Group A reported that during the same encounter where they said “no” to sex they later said explicitly said “yes” to sex. I didn’t give the specific figure for this before, but 70% of Group A said the encounter where they said “no” but actually wanted to have sex involved a man who they’d never had sex with before. Many of them (I can’t find the number now) had been on more than 10 dates with this man by that time, and so had reached a point where the relationship was pretty serious but had not yet become sexual. This seems consistent with the researchers’ claim that many of the women in Group A were describing an encounter where they changed their minds rather than one where they said “no” dishonestly. For a relationship to go from non-sexual to (consensually) sexual, there has to be a point where the people involved change their minds about whether they’re willing to have sex yet, and that point might very well come during a date. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/265 "2013-04-15T00:47:06Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > But you are ignoring the fact that gender is also an important aspect of experiencing sexual assault. If you are assaulted by a person with the same gender as you, and you are straight, then it is worse, because now the assaulting person is not the gender of which you are attracted to. > > It would be a fairer comparison (not analogy) to ask **pancakes3** how he would feel if he was sexually assaulted by a stronger, more aggressive, and larger woman (even though this is a very unlikely hypothetical). **Anonymous User** , you are trying to ski a Double Black Diamond course while wearing your ski jacket like a pair of pants. And also instead of skis, you have two stale breadsticks you got at Olive Garden last week. You should consider sitting this one out. That is all I’m going to say to you. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/266 "2013-04-15T00:56:56Z")
> [@colander](#): > > **Anonymous User** , you are trying to ski a Double Black Diamond course while wearing your ski jacket like a pair of pants. And also instead of skis, you have two stale breadsticks you got at Olive Garden last week. You should consider sitting this one out. > > That is all I’m going to say to you. After stating my position on the “no means no” issue, I am really not advocating any positions on the other side-issues, but instead asking questions to get a better understanding of what some people are saying. That is all. To reiterate, I am not “trying” to do anything except ask questions from a position of acknowledged ignorance in order to better understand what some posters are saying (excluding post 250). ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/267 "2013-04-15T00:58:31Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > You know, this discussion is really getting to me. If I weren’t married I’d throw you one, just to prove that women who really want it are out there and worth looking for. That just made my day. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/268 "2013-04-15T01:02:18Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > There are a couple of mistakes here, so I fear I may have summarized the study’s findings in a less than clear manner. I want to clear that up just so there’s no confusion. > > It’s correct that in this study 37% of respondents agreed that they had, on at least one occasion, said “no” to sex with a man when they actually did want to have sex. For clarity, I’ll call these women “Group A”. > > The researchers felt that, based on the detailed descriptions of the encounters and their own motivations that were provided by the respondents, 83% of Group A were actually describing an encounter where they changed their minds about wanting to have sex. The researchers suggested that their initial question about whether the women had ever said “no” when they wanted to have sex didn’t require respondents to think carefully enough about the sequence of events, and that many were thinking of dates where they’d said “no” and then _later_ wanted to have sex. > > 40% of Group A reported that during the same encounter where they said “no” to sex they later said explicitly said “yes” to sex. > > I didn’t give the specific figure for this before, but 70% of Group A said the encounter where they said “no” but actually wanted to have sex involved a man who they’d never had sex with before. Many of them (I can’t find the number now) had been on more than 10 dates with this man by that time, and so had reached a point where the relationship was pretty serious but had not yet become sexual. This seems consistent with the researchers’ claim that many of the women in Group A were describing an encounter where they changed their minds rather than one where they said “no” dishonestly. For a relationship to go from non-sexual to (consensually) sexual, there has to be a point where the people involved change their minds about whether they’re willing to have sex yet, and that point might very well come during a date. Thanks. I just realized that the way I wrote it, those were two separate categories that are \> 100%. Oops! Anyway, what you say definitely underscores the point that many of these women had been dating someone for a while. That leaves very little room for a “playing games” and “giving mixed signals” scenario. Again, the group that is the most depressing to me are the women who are saying no when they actually want to have sex because of a bad past experience. Those “mixed signals” are fear. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/269 "2013-04-15T01:03:01Z")
Wait, **colander** did quote post 250. Oh, screw it. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/270 "2013-04-15T01:12:50Z")
Scratch my last two posts. [del] > [@Anonymous User](#): > > [del]After stating my position on the “no means no” issue, I am really not advocating any positions on the other side-issues, but instead asking questions to get a better understanding of what some people are saying. That is all. > > To reiterate, I am not “trying” to do anything except ask questions from a position of acknowledged ignorance in order to better understand what some posters are saying (excluding post 250).[/del] > [@Anonymous User](#): > > [del]Wait, **colander** did quote post 250. Oh, screw it.[/del] [/del] ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/271 "2013-04-15T01:23:16Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > After stating my position on the “no means no” issue, I am really not advocating any positions on the other side-issues, but instead asking questions to get a better understanding of what some people are saying. That is all. > > To reiterate, I am not “trying” to do anything except ask questions from a position of acknowledged ignorance in order to better understand what some posters are saying (excluding post 250). OK, for a position of ignorance, it doesn’t make any difference if the person assaulting you is your preferred gender, your non preferred gender, or a gorilla. Bi people can get sexually assaulted. Sexual assault happens when you do not want the sexual touch (assault usually involves touch - harassment doesn’t - but can be as intimidating) and get it anyway. This isn’t accidental touch - bumping into a woman isn’t sexual assault. Bumping into her for the purpose of grabbing her breasts is. If, by some improbability, you fall into a woman in such a way that you grab her breasts, you should IMMEDIATELY stammer a heartfelt apology and then drop it, leaving her alone and avoid her for the rest of eternity. Creeping is different behavior and still bad. Creeping often doesn’t escalate to assault or harassment. Its going behind Angela Merkle at a summit and giving her a shoulder rub she didn’t request. Its managing to be outside her English class every day as she leaves to say “you sure look nice in that sweater.” And so we are clear, there are prosecutable cases of sexual assault, harassment and rape - and there are the common use way women (and some men) use these words. What women consider rape is often a much lower bar than what would be a prosecutable offense. But regardless of if you can go to prison or not, its still a shitty way to treat another human being. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/272 "2013-04-15T01:25:30Z")
> [@colander](#): > > **Anonymous User** , you are trying to ski a Double Black Diamond course while wearing your ski jacket like a pair of pants. And also instead of skis, you have two stale breadsticks you got at Olive Garden last week. You should consider sitting this one out. > > That is all I’m going to say to you. When I made my first post that defended any kind of position on this side-issue, I thought that gender must be an important factor in defining how bad experiencing sexual assault is, so I posted: > [@Anonymous User](#): > > But you are ignoring the fact that gender is also an important aspect of experiencing sexual assault. If you are assaulted by a person with the same gender as you, and you are straight, then it is worse, because now the assaulting person is not the gender of which you are attracted to. > > It would be a fairer comparison (not analogy) to ask **pancakes3** how he would feel if he was sexually assaulted by a stronger, more aggressive, and larger woman (even though this is a very unlikely hypothetical). …where my intent wasn’t to advocate this position, but to ask: > [@Anonymous User](#): > > So to you, there is no difference in getting sexually assaulted by stronger, more aggressive, and larger woman than in getting sexually assaulted by a stronger, more aggressive, and larger man? > > Or if there is, which scenario do you feel is worse? So I admit that post 250 was a mistake because instead of asking whether women feel that gender is a factor in how bad experiencing sexual assault is like I did in my next post, I made the assumption that getting sexually assaulted by the same sex (if straight) _is_ worse than getting sexually assaulted by the opposite sex. Of course, personal opinion about which is worse also comes into play on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/273 "2013-04-15T01:26:44Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > I think we’re supposed to throw swords at them from the middle of lakes. Nah, that’ll just give them an excuse to call us watery tarts. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/274 "2013-04-15T01:28:45Z")
Sorry for the big hijack I created, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/275 "2013-04-15T01:32:28Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > This is a new way of thinking for a lot of people, and I’m just putting it out for your consideration. The new “thing” in rape prevention is promoting the idea of “[enthusiastic consent](http://campus.feministing.com/2010/10/27/on-the-critical-hotness-of-enthusiastic-consent/)” and trying to persuade women to get rid of their old passive patterns of “consent”. Really, we’re trying to work on it from the female end, but for it to work, we need the cooperation of our partners, too. If she’s going to start using her “yes”, you’ve got to stop not believing her “no”. Good stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/276 "2013-04-15T02:13:06Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Do you seriously think that accidental rapes are a problem? Because, to me, the idea seems ludicrous. Rapists know that they are raping people. And I am not raping anyone, or coming close to it. Well, it’s clear that the “misanthrope” diagnosis is true, if you’ve never known someone who committed rape without the intent to. I know LOTS of fuckers like that just in my fraternity, who pushed past “no” or “she’s drunk” and found themselves in trouble. What’s so fucking hard about “yes means yes”? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/277 "2013-04-15T02:14:54Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > It seems the pro-women side (for lack of a better term) views the very invasion of private space as the major threshold of impropriety whereas the pro-men side views the kissing and other lesser-sexual acts are more harmless and thus lumping all of it under the same label of “sexual assault” as… inaccurate. The pro-men side? The PRO-MEN side? You fuckin make me want to vomit. You’re not the pro-men side, you’re the asshole side. And this after you accuse others of speaking for all women. Fuckin puke. > [@Anonymous User](#): > > But you are ignoring the fact that gender is also an important aspect of experiencing sexual assault. If you are assaulted by a person with the same gender as you, and you are straight, then it is worse, because now the assaulting person is not the gender of which you are attracted to. If anything it ought to be less awful. A straight woman is still gonna want to have sexual relationships with other men, but a sexual assault from a man can trigger all sorts of PTSD that will make that more difficult. A straight man has no interest in pursuing sexual relationships with other men, so a sexual assault from a man won’t fuck up that part of his life as badly. But all that’s stupid theory anyway, because sexual assault is awful, full stop. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/278 "2013-04-15T02:55:19Z")
Jesus Christ, people. What the fuck difference does it make if kissing is worse than rape, or if it worse if it’s gay, or whatever bullshit argument you’re making? Why is this debate even happening? That’s not even the goddamn point. The point is, it’s scary and traumatizing to be forced into a situation where you’re with someone who is ignoring your protests, you have no control over the situation, and you don’t know what’s going to happen. And that’s a shitty thing to put someone through on the chance they may be “playing hard to get”. Whether or not rape is worse than “force kissing” is an unrelated (and very stupid) debate. And the only reason gay men were brought up was just as an effort try to get you to actually understand the situation a woman can be put in and maybe show a little empathy. But that was clearly useless. At this point if you still can’t understand, obviously something crucial is missing in your brain and you’re a lost cause. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/279 "2013-04-15T04:07:27Z")
I think we could spend a lot of time discussing the minutiae of what is right and wrong in a relationship, but we would be better off looking at the big picture. What can we do to prevent sexual assault and rape? This thread and the other one have already got out of hand. Should we take this over to Great Debates? I have a post already made but if somebody else wants to start it, I’m fine with that. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/280 "2013-04-15T04:11:57Z")
> [@colander](#): > > **Anonymous User** , you are trying to ski a Double Black Diamond course while wearing your ski jacket like a pair of pants. And also instead of skis, you have two stale breadsticks you got at Olive Garden last week. You should consider sitting this one out. > > That is all I’m going to say to you. Though I have to say, that was quite a creative post. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=15)