# Treis, no means no. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556 "2013-04-13T01:07:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/361 "2013-04-15T20:17:13Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > This is bizarre. I knew we had some clueless, inexperienced and asocial weirdos on board, hell, it’s the internet. This is an active, valid social life for some peculiar introverts and I wouldn’t discount that fact for a second. But what I didn’t realize is that they will believe everything they read/watch at the expense of a real life experience. If an actual, live girl/woman is pushing your hand away, stop it. Forget everything you’ve read. Remember when we joke about the unbelievable “Dear Penthouse” letters? This is why. Most of what you read and watch online regarding sex is pure fantasy. Don’t trust it. Plus. why in the hell would you want something as awesome as sex from someone who doesn’t want you? > > Anyway, all I can figure is that the guys who aren’t so good at social maneuvers really place a high value on their seduction fantasies. Remember that girl who ignored you in 10th grade history class? If only you could slide a hand up her thigh and hook a finger under her cotton panties, she’d melt under your skillful touch like a drunken, subservient Geisha. Dudes, that’s bullshit. You’ve got to bring something to the table. No combination of “moves” or button pushing will make a reluctant girl want you inside her. She might cave out guilt after having “because blue balls!!1!” whined repeatedly in her ear. She might give in because “most girls her age are enjoying sex” and she feels she must, or maybe she’ll acquiesce because she’s afraid if she doesn’t relax and let this happen: you’ll hit her or tear that delicate tissue. If she gives in, at least she’s exercising some shred of control and can pretend later that she allowed it to happen. Because the alternative is a terrifying nightmare, PTSD guaranteed. Still, I have to wonder again, why in the hell would you take something as awesome as sex from someone who isn’t enthusiastically all over you, eager to please you, and just as excited as you are? > > Ah, hell, nevermind. I know why you guys want to take it. We all know. Because your delicate egos need to believe that the girl you are about to mercilessly plow is a virgin or damn close to it. And if she’s hesitant, reluctant, or fearful, you get to pretend a bigger dick hasn’t reamed her out and left her screaming in ecstasy before you got there. Okay, okay, we get it. You want to overpower the virgin and seduce the haughty cheerleader who wouldn’t give you the time of day in Geometry. > > For the rest of you guys who are only entertaining seduction fantasies and haven’t yet overpowered a woman, please consider this. Later in life, when you are past the stage where we refer to “bases” and fret over virginity, you will find and maybe fall in love with women who will cater to your seduction fantasy. Dress up in plaid minis, blush prettily, and shove your hand away with quickened breath and soaked panties because though she is playing: she really, really wants you in there, maybe even wants it all over her face, maybe even wants her hair pulled a little. Maybe wants to be ordered around and told what to do, and will be crazy excited by that game. That’s got to be more rewarding, right? Please tell me being breathlessly, frantically desired by a willing woman trumps forcefully plugging yourself into a dry, reluctant hole. Please tell me at least some of you will wait for that. I certainly hope you have children or at the very least have access to some to teach this very very well written truth. Thank you. My best friends have always been female, and I, as a heterosexual man, have always been disgusted by the attitudes of some of my cohort towards my female friends. I have daughters and was married for many years. All of them have been harassed. Hrrrrrr… ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/362 "2013-04-15T20:24:05Z")
> [@ugly ripe tomato](#): > > It’s not easier, because they get shitheads offering to “cure them” and telling them that “they just haven’t met the right man.” Yeah I didn’t think of that… ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/363 "2013-04-15T20:28:24Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Honestly, after reading all these horror stories, if I was a a woman, I think I’d want to be a lesbian. You think so. No, you just get further objectified. Two hot chicks! See we straight women recognize that men are individuals. That there are some real shit heads out there, but there are also some really decent human beings. And while they look funny naked, we still find men preferable to women, My sexual harassment resume: Raped Sexually harassed to the point I lost my job Stalked Followed home from my job Ran out on several dates when the choice seemed to be run or rape Felt up in bars Felt up in elevators Treated like an object Thank god I’m nearing fifty and no longer the target I was. And like other women in this thread, I have never had a conversation with another woman who has never had some sort of sexual assault experience ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/364 "2013-04-15T20:32:59Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > I certainly hope you have children or at the very least have access to some to teach this very very well written truth. > Thank you. > > My best friends have always been female, and I, as a heterosexual man, have always been disgusted by the attitudes of some of my cohort towards my female friends. I have daughters and was married for many years. All of them have been harassed. > Hrrrrrr… Thank you. I’ve always been a man’s woman; my best friends have always been male, and I love them and relate to them as equals and could write tomes praising the admirable traits they have that I lack, and I’m always astounded at how incredibly _earnest_ they are in pursuit of love. And I feel for the posturing and kowtowing they have to go through in order to secure sex and love. The problems aren’t the same, but they weigh the same and I’m so glad we’ve always had each other for support and advice. You know, that’s the best advice I have. Make as many platonic friends of the opposite sex you possibly can, and listen and learn from them. Takes the mystery and confusion right out of romance, it does. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/365 "2013-04-15T20:39:34Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > You think so. No, you just get further objectified. Two hot chicks! > > See we straight women recognize that men are individuals. That there are some real shit heads out there, but there are also some really decent human beings. And while they look funny naked, we still find men preferable to women, > My sexual harassment resume: > Raped > Sexually harassed to the point I lost my job > Stalked > Followed home from my job > Ran out on several dates when the choice seemed to be run or rape > Felt up in bars > Felt up in elevators > Treated like an object > > Thank god I’m nearing fifty and no longer the target I was. > > And like other women in this thread, I have never had a conversation with another woman who has never had some sort of sexual assault experience It’s insane to think that virtually every woman has been assaulted in some way. I am going to ask my sister and female friends about their experiences. I’ve never heard them talk about it. I have three young nieces and the thought of some asshole pressuring them or assaulting them is making me think violent thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/366 "2013-04-15T20:44:05Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Stalked You reminded me of my stalker from college. I was a very shy quiet girl, and this guy - called himself Fred but his name was really Fahdi - stalked me pretty heavily. Used to come up behind me and rub my shoulders and shit like that. I didn’t know enough to tell him to back off and it was almost exclusively because of him I took a self-defense course. It never went anywhere, thankfully. Oh! And there was an older man at work. Now my old job, my chair directly faced the hallway, so I would see him every day. At first it was friendly waves. Then one day he came in and asked me out. He was at least 60 and I was 30. I told him politely, no, I wasn’t interested, because I had a boyfriend. End of it, right? NOPE. So every day now he’d pop by and wave, and make me increasingly uncomfortable. Sometimes he’d come inside and say, “Have you reconsidered? Would you like to go out with me? We could just go as friends!” I might have considered it…if he wasn’t so damn pushy. Over and over and over again. Now when I sit at that desk I am the face of my company and I am aware of that. And it wasn’t really harassment. So I didn’t want to be rude. But I was older then, and the third time he asked me I said, “I really am not interested in going out with you, ever.” And his face fell, and he said, “Why don’t you like me?” in the most plainitive tone. As I said before, I still like men. I love my SO, who is a decent and good man and who will get a big hug and some love tonight just for being who he is. If I broke up with him I’d end with another man, eventually. We know you guys are different, and some of you are decent while others are jerks. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/367 "2013-04-15T20:58:19Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > It’s insane to think that virtually every woman has been assaulted in some way. I am going to ask my sister and female friends about their experiences. I’ve never heard them talk about it. I have three young nieces and the thought of some asshole pressuring them or assaulting them is making me think violent thoughts. We’ve had several threads rejecting the idea that we live in a rape culture. Now, understanding the world the majority of women live in, do you think that “rape culture” might have some validity? I’m not necessarily fond of the term, but I think women usually get why such a term exists, and men think “what the hell?” And it’s interesting. To tell women “you need to protect yourself” is acknowledging the existence of that rape culture,however, it puts the onus on women to protect themselves, it doesn’t address the need for a culture change. What we want is to get into a crowded subway car and not wonder “is today a getting groped day, or not?” ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/368 "2013-04-15T21:05:13Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > What we want is to get into a crowded subway car and not wonder “is today a getting groped day, or not?” The fun thing about this is: it’s never the day you think it’s going to be. When you walk out the door that morning, thinking you look like hot shit, strutting along, prepared for whatever cat calls and nonsense comes your way because, shit!, you look _good_. . . nothing. When you wake up with a sinus headache from your allergies, big bags under your eyes from a shitty night’s sleep from sneezing, and roll out of bed and out the door in yoga pants, a baggy t, and a sloppy pony tail. . . that’s the day everybody decides to try to finger you on the subway. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/369 "2013-04-15T21:15:28Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > The fun thing about this is: it’s never the day you think it’s going to be. > > When you walk out the door that morning, thinking you look like hot shit, strutting along, prepared for whatever cat calls and nonsense comes your way because, shit!, you look _good_. . . nothing. > > When you wake up with a sinus headache from your allergies, big bags under your eyes from a shitty night’s sleep from sneezing, and roll out of bed and out the door in yoga pants, a baggy t, and a sloppy pony tail. . . that’s the day everybody decides to try to finger you on the subway. And that is why we believe this is about power, not sex. Predators cull the weakest. I’d bet that tens get harassed less than sixes. By the way, my daughter is thirteen and in middle school. She has brought her binder down on the head of one kid and yelled “get your hands off me” at another. I’m hoping it holds. She has no interest in being popular or even liked, so … We will see. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/370 "2013-04-15T21:16:13Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > It’s insane to think that virtually every woman has been assaulted in some way. I am going to ask my sister and female friends about their experiences. I’ve never heard them talk about it. I have three young nieces and the thought of some asshole pressuring them or assaulting them is making me think violent thoughts. No, it’s not insane. Ask your questions gently and in a non-blaming fashion and you may well be shocked at what some of your friends have gone through. Women often don’t tell men about the trouble we go through. Perhaps we should. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/371 "2013-04-15T21:30:05Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#): > > Women often don’t tell men about the trouble we go through. Perhaps we should. I think we should and loudly, but it’s understandable why so few women do. Look at the **MOL** thread that spawned this one: we have a woman telling her story, she admits right in the OP that she judged him wrongly and shouldn’t have let him up or put up with his pawing as long as she did. . . but you still have a shit ton of posters who swarm in to blame her for what happened. Why would we tell the stories of what happens to us if we know there’s going to be at least a handful of douche canoes who blame us? So, it’s tough. But I think society is moving to the point where the treatment of women-- the real treatment of women-- is no longer a dirty little secret. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/372 "2013-04-15T21:35:50Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Snip… > > Thank god I’m nearing fifty and no longer the target I was. > > …snip No. This weekend just gone. She’s 70 and arthritic, he’s 50 and drunk. It took her a long and painful time to fight him off. “Just havin’ a laff.” I’ve been following all these threads but right now I’m just too tired and angry to fight the same fight for the umpteenth time. I’m sorry. I feel I should be supporting the wonderful and articulate men and women on this board who are still trying to get the message across: No means no. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/373 "2013-04-15T21:37:30Z")
**Living Well Is Best Revenge** , you’re a class act. Sorry that things got so snarky before, but hopefully now you understand a little better _why_ people get so angry about this issue. I am impressed that you’ve taken the time and made the effort to listen despite the snark, and even more so that you’re willing to change your attitude on the issue. Yeah, be careful how you ask those questions, but I’m confident that you’ll hear similar answers. So many women don’t even count the occasional grope or pinch or grab because “that’s just how it is”. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/374 "2013-04-15T21:38:58Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > Gee, I am certainly glad we have progressed past blaming the victim. > > Also, I wish someone could really convince those of you who doubt, or who assume we exaggerate, that really and truly every woman, EVERY WOMAN, has been assaulted to one degree or another by a man who insisted on doing things she was telling him not to do. Every one of us. And we are not making this up, or exaggerating. And yet, as someone said above, we still want to have sex with men. Lucky thing for you all that WE don’t treat YOU as if you were all the same, huh? Honestly, I had no idea. I have never heard of these stories by any woman in real life. I get it now, though. The onus is on the men to understand boundaries and not assault or rape. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/375 "2013-04-15T21:39:13Z")
> [@maggenpye](#): > > I’ve been following all these threads but right now I’m just too tired and angry to fight the same fight for the umpteenth time. I’m sorry. I feel I should be supporting the wonderful and articulate men and women on this board who are still trying to get the message across: > > No means no. It’s exhausting, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/376 "2013-04-15T21:39:47Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > It’s insane to think that virtually every woman has been assaulted in some way. I am going to ask my sister and female friends about their experiences. I’ve never heard them talk about it. I have three young nieces and the thought of some asshole pressuring them or assaulting them is making me think violent thoughts. They might not be comfortable telling you about these things. I was married to my husband for over 30 years before I told him about the rape attempts that I’ve survived. Partly this was because it never really occurred to me to tell him, but also partly because I was trying to get over the attempts. He’d make rape jokes, and I’d tell him that I didn’t find them funny. Then we had a daughter, and suddenly HE didn’t find rape jokes to be all that funny, either. As for your young nieces…I started getting catcalled when I was about 10. My daughter started getting them at about that age, too. That’s when we developed enough that a casual observer could tell that we were female, not male. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/377 "2013-04-15T21:53:10Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Am I angry? …Not as such. Just really really sad about it. This is a man who took in someone else’s daughter (I was adopted, born out of wedlock) and gave me his name and sheltered me from the cruelty of living in India without a dad and having been born out of wedlock. He did a great deal for me. I feel so sad that all of that wasn’t _all_ the memories I have of him, that I also have these other dirty memories in my head, too. I just had to say, I can relate so much to this post, and it’s rare to find someone who understands. He was my adopted father and he was supposed to be a Dad. I don’t have a relationship with him at all now that he’s divorced my Mom, but I think about all the ways in which he was a Dad and it just makes me so sad. I actively miss him sometimes., but then I think, maybe he never was that person I worshipped so much when I was a kid. Maybe he didn’t really love me and he was just being manipulative. I don’t know. For me it wasn’t what actually happened that hurt so much, it was the betrayal of someone who is supposed to protect you. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/378 "2013-04-15T21:58:01Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It’s exhausting, isn’t it? Yes. Over and over and over again, only to hear the same bullshit lines. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/379 "2013-04-15T22:01:21Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It’s exhausting, isn’t it? Yes. But no doubt I’ll make the effort again, just not here today. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/380 "2013-04-15T22:04:03Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Honestly, I had no idea. I have never heard of these stories by any woman in real life. I get it now, though. The onus is on the men to understand boundaries and not assault or rape. I lived a sheltered life and I was groped at age 12 on a family vacation overseas, cornered and kissed at 13 while babysitting by a classmate who came by and wouldn’t leave, cornered and fondled at 14 on a youth group trip by an 18 year old peer leader, pressured heavily to have sex (didn’t, but made to feel awful about it and then dumped) at 18 a few weeks into college. And that’s nothing compared to real assault and trauma and its been with me all my life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=20)