# Treis, no means no. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556 "2013-04-13T01:07:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/421 "2013-04-15T23:23:29Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > I’m not going to dig back through this whole thread to get into “that’s not what I meant” bullshit with someone who has consistently maintained that when a women says NO, it doesn’t really count because he doesn’t think it should. No, you’re just going to keep making shit up and ascribing it to me. Challenge part two, Electric Boogaloo. Find where I ever said anything close to “when a women says NO, it doesn’t really count”. Back your posts up or fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/422 "2013-04-15T23:23:30Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Sometimes I wonder if I am posting in English… I wonder if you learned English on the same planet I did. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/423 "2013-04-15T23:23:41Z")
Gross, **treis**. So sad that you’d cling to this weaksauce memory of a singular missed encounter with a clearly reluctant woman. Get the fuck over it and stop spreading your agenda to men as clueless and ruthless as yourself. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/424 "2013-04-15T23:25:04Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Sometimes I wonder if I am posting in English… It meant no. Her motive for saying no is not relevant. What she said was no. If you go ask for a promotion and they say no, it doesn’t matter if they really wanted to give it to you. They said no. If you ask the cop not to write you a ticket and she says no, it doesn’t matter if she thinks the rules are lame. She said no. Would you go home after getting these nos and say, “Well, I really have a promotion and I didn’t get a ticket”? You wouldn’t. Because they said no. No means no. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/425 "2013-04-15T23:26:08Z")
Let’s look at this from a [Prisoner’s Dilemma](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma) perspective. You ask a woman for sex and she says “no.” Either (a) she means it, or (b) she doesn’t --you don’t know which. Your options are to either (1) take her at her word or (2) assume she’s lying and pester her until she gives in. So here’s the possibilities: 1a: You both go your separate ways and you don’t get laid tonight. 2a: You have consensual sex. 1b: You both go your separate ways and you don’t get laid tonight. 2b: **You’ve just committed date rape.** So, tell me, is 1 or 2 the smarter response? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/426 "2013-04-15T23:29:44Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > I get that you’re not arguing you should have pressed on and had sex with that girl despite what she said, but I also have no idea what point you think you’re making. Refuting “no means no” with “not true, sometimes women do want to have sex even when they’re saying no” is somewhere between pointless and patronizing. Do you think no one is aware of the concept of being tempted by something even if you opt not to do it? Do you think society is somehow being harmed by a simplistic message of erring on the side of boundaries when it comes to “no means no”? What wrong do you think you’re righting, exactly? I am not a crusader out to right any wrong. There’s no motivation behind my post besides what motivates the rest of us to post here. I don’t know what’s unclear about my participation in the thread was. The essential point of the original thread was: “Guys, Y U no listen?” “Because some women don’t always mean no when they say no.” Cue about 15 pages of people calling me an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/427 "2013-04-15T23:31:19Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I am not a crusader out to right any wrong. There’s no motivation behind my post besides what motivates the rest of us to post here. I don’t know what’s unclear about my participation in the thread was. The essential point of the original thread was: > > “Guys, Y U no listen?” > > “Because some women don’t always mean no when they say no.” > > Cue about 15 pages of people calling me an asshole. If one man calls you an ass; pay no heed. If another man says thus: purchase a saddle. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/428 "2013-04-15T23:31:37Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Let’s look at this from a [Prisoner’s Dilemma](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma) perspective. You ask a woman for sex and she says “no.” Either (a) she means it, or (b) she doesn’t --you don’t know which. Your options are to either (1) take her at her word or (2) assume she’s lying and pester her until she gives in. > > So here’s the possibilities: > > 1a: You both go your separate ways and you don’t get laid tonight. > 2a: You have consensual sex. > 1b: You both go your separate ways and you don’t get laid tonight. > 2b: **You’ve just committed date rape.** > > So, tell me, is 1 or 2 the smarter response? That’s not what the Prisoner’s dilemma is. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/429 "2013-04-15T23:31:52Z")
> [@treis](#): > > In this case, her no meeant “Yes, but I don’t want **treis** to think I’m a slut”. **Treis** , I hate to be so adamant, but you’re wrong. It didn’t mean “Yes, but I don’t want treis to think I’m a slut”. It meant “No, because as much as I want to hump him hard, I don’t want him to think/ to think of myself as a slut”. It’s like every other yes/no decision people make. No covers “yuck, I hate broccoli, no I don’t want it anywhere near me” as well as “No, I want that ice cream very much, but I’m watching my weight right now, so no”. Yes / no decisions are rarely ONLY about the desire. Do I wish I had a sports car? Hell yes! But there’s a whole bunch of other factors other than my desires that come into play - disposable income, garage space, practicality, insurance costs - that all come together to outweigh a desire. So the answer ends up being no to the sports car. Does that make sense? And someone pushing me to buy that sports car is not respecting my ability to look at all the factors and make a decision that’s right for me. That’s objectionable to anyone, even when the topic is just a purchase, not your own bodily autonomy ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/430 "2013-04-15T23:32:08Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Sometimes I wonder if I am posting in English… So it meant “go ahead and fuck me” or it meant “no?” Which did it mean? This is binary here. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/431 "2013-04-15T23:33:40Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I am not a crusader out to right any wrong. There’s no motivation behind my post besides what motivates the rest of us to post here. I don’t know what’s unclear about my participation in the thread was. The essential point of the original thread was: > > “Guys, Y U no listen?” > > “Because some women don’t always mean no when they say no.” > > Cue about 15 pages of people calling me an asshole. Goddamn, you are the stupidest person on this fucking board. She meant no. She had a reason for saying no that you don’t approve of. She wanted to say yes, but said no. Her word was no. She didn’t mean one thing and say another. She meant to say no and said no. She was not suffering from a traumatic brain injury (though I think I am at this point) so that the only word she could say was no while she was trying to say yes. She meant no. Later, she said yes. _That doesn’t mean she didn’t actually say no the first time and that you actually had sex with her the first time._ ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/432 "2013-04-15T23:36:39Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I am not a crusader out to right any wrong. There’s no motivation behind my post besides what motivates the rest of us to post here. I don’t know what’s unclear about my participation in the thread was. The essential point of the original thread was: > > “Guys, Y U no listen?” > > “Because some women don’t always mean no when they say no.” > > Cue about 15 pages of people calling me an asshole. Isn’t there any room in your view that maybe you’re wrong about this? That when she said “No…” she was giving you the _reason_ behind why she chose no? That when she said “no” she wasn’t saying it IN THE HOPES that you would push and push her so she’d eventually say yes? But that she said “no” for personal reasons and she actually meant it? Even if later she regretted it and wished she had sex with you, she still meant “no” at the time? It’s attitudes like yours that I try to teach my son to avoid and teach my daughter to watch out for. It’s the not the girls sending mixed messages- its the guys who interpret those messages through their own filter, regardless of what’s being said to them. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/433 "2013-04-15T23:39:20Z")
Really, after 9 pages it’s come down to this? I was never anything but perfectly clear what I meant. Let me quote myself one more time: > [@treis](#): > > So the reality is that no does not always mean absolutely no. It can mean, “yes, but I want you to be the instigator”. It can mean, “maybe, I want to fool around a bit and see how it goes first”. It can mean, “I want to fool around a bit but not have sex”. I certainly don’t think people have been calling me a rapist for 8 pages because they object to the way I use the English language. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/434 "2013-04-15T23:40:41Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I am not a crusader out to right any wrong. There’s no motivation behind my post besides what motivates the rest of us to post here. I don’t know what’s unclear about my participation in the thread was. The essential point of the original thread was: > > “Guys, Y U no listen?” > > “Because some women don’t always mean no when they say no.” > > Cue about 15 pages of people calling me an asshole. That’s so weird. I had the same thing happen to me when I went into a thread titled “Why do some men hit their wives?” and tried to explain that sometimes women can be really annoying and need a smack in the mouth. But for some reason, all anyone wanted to talk about what a jerk I was! Can you believe it? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/435 "2013-04-15T23:41:38Z")
No one has misunderstood you. You’re being perfectly clear. We’re explaining to you why you’re wrong. What you are saying is incorrect. You are saying no sometimes means, among other things, “yes but I don’t want **Treis** to think I’m a slut.” But you’re incorrect when you say this. “No” never means that. In particular, that was not its meaning when the lady said it to you on the occasion you described. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/436 "2013-04-15T23:41:54Z")
> [@Essured](#): > > Treis, > It might have meant, “No. I really really want to, in fact I’m panting and horny as hell, but still no (for other reasons which for me, this instant, outweigh my horniness)” That fits her saying later that she did want to, without making her a liar, or making her ‘no’ invalid. > > Do you understand that while most people say no to things they don’t want, in some circumstances a person can say no to things that they do actually want? Treis why do you respond to the posts that you feel are calling you asshole, but ignore posts like this which would be really interesting to respond to? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/437 "2013-04-15T23:42:14Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Really, after 9 pages it’s come down to this? I was never anything but perfectly clear what I meant. Let me quote myself one more time: > > I certainly don’t think people have been calling me a rapist for 8 pages because they object to the way I use the English language. No still means no. She said no. In her secret heart, it was because she didn’t want you to think she was a slut, but if you had had sex with her, you would be a rapist. Because her secret heart is hers. Consent is not what’s in her secret heart. Consent is what you hear, not what you imagine. Consent is not what she tells you later. Consent is not the excuses you make. Consent is not hidden. Consent is an overt act, not a secret. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/438 "2013-04-15T23:45:20Z")
(I’ve simply given up on \*\*treis \*\*at this point; I don’t think one more voice will make a difference, but…what they said.) > [@Gagundathar](#): > > What can I do? I teach all of the children around here to respect each other regardless of their sex. As they grow older, I will coordinate with the other parental-units to make certain that this is less probable. Taking this as a real question, and not rhetorical ('cause why not?)… Don’t make your kids kiss Aunt Edna if they don’t want to. I know, it sounds silly, and Aunt Edna probably isn’t a rapist. But we set kids up with this pattern of giving in to physical affection they don’t want when they’re very small, and then get surprised when they give in to physical affection they don’t want when they’re older. Aunt Edna will understand, “Oh, you don’t feel like kissing today? That’s okay. Maybe a high five or a fist bump? No? Okay, your body, your rules.” Similarly, it is not cute when a little girl throttles a little boy for a kiss (or vice versa or homosexed). If they’re “consensual” - if they hug and give each other a peck together, that’s cute. That’s adorable, even, and adult “awwwws” are appropriate. But if it’s one sided, it needs to be stopped immediately with a word about bodies and respect, and the affection channeled in a non physical direction. “Oh, no-no! No touching people who don’t want to be touched. Should we color pictures and give them to each other instead?” Don’t tease or tickle, promise to stop and then tease or tickle again. It’s fun to you, but it teaches kids that persistence pays, and that “NO!” only applies for 30 seconds. I’ve gotten some flack for this before, but we actually have a safe word with our kids. They can giggle and squeal and protest, but if they say “Stop, please!” that’s the end of the game. Similarly, don’t let kids tease other kids once they’ve said they’ll stop. And I hope it goes without being said, but this applies to every adult interaction the kid observes. Even if you know that you and your girlfriend are just being silly and it’s consensual despite the giggled “stop it!” the kids don’t get it. They see you being aggressive and not respecting her no. And no matter what you say, what you do is a more powerful lesson. Your body, your rules is our mantra, no matter how old you are. The only exceptions are for safety (you’re about to run in front of a car, I \*will \*grab your arm and apologize later!) and medical exams. Even then, you get to pick which parent you’d like to stay in the room with you, where they’ll stand, if they’ll hold your hand or your toe or sit quietly in the corner. And ALL OF THIS APPLIES TO ALL GENDERS. We’ve talked a lot in this thread about how men are aggressive towards women, but I see it happen the other way, too. Especially teenaged girls can be quite aggressive towards young men who aren’t entirely sure they’re ready for such attention. The poor things usually have their own dose of manhood questioning issues if they say no to a girl, so that’s just another kind of ugly mess. Bottom line is _no one_, man, woman, boy, girl or other should have their body used for someone else’s amusement without clear, enthusiastic consent. Teach that, live that, and the rest follows. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/439 "2013-04-15T23:46:32Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Really, after 9 pages it’s come down to this? I was never anything but perfectly clear what I meant. Let me quote myself one more time: > > I certainly don’t think people have been calling me a rapist for 8 pages because they object to the way I use the English language. Did she mean “yes” when she said no, or - at that moment in time, did she mean no. This is English. Because what you’ve said multiple times is that she didn’t really mean no. Did she, or did she not, give consent for sex, at that moment in time? ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/440 "2013-04-15T23:49:09Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Really, after 9 pages it’s come down to this? I was never anything but perfectly clear what I meant. Let me quote myself one more time: Yes, sugarbeet, you’ve made it adamantly clear that you think that when a woman says “no” to sex, but she has shown you the merest molecule of positive attention in the previous 24 hours, she really means “fuck me hard, you magnificent wildebeest” and the correct response is to pressure her until she gives up and spreads 'em because [Bad Pepe le Pew accent]she wants you, yes she does, her eyes, they say no but her moist quivering femininity says yes Yes YESSSSS!!![/BPlPA] > [@](#): > > I certainly don’t think people have been calling me a rapist for 8 pages because they object to the way I use the English language. No? So why DO you think they’ve been calling you a rapist for 8 pages? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=23)