# Treis, no means no. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556 "2013-04-13T01:07:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/441 "2013-04-15T23:50:18Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Treis why do you respond to the posts that you feel are calling you asshole, but ignore posts like this which would be really interesting to respond to? I’m trying to hit everyone I can. > [@Essured](#): > > Treis, > It might have meant, “No. I really really want to, in fact I’m panting and horny as hell, but still no (for other reasons which for me, this instant, outweigh my horniness)” That fits her saying later that she did want to, without making her a liar, or making her ‘no’ invalid. > > Do you understand that while most people say no to things they don’t want, in some circumstances a person can say no to things that they do actually want? Do I understand that? I’m reasonably certain that’s my entire point. I mean, what’s unclear about this: > [@](#): > > So the reality is that no does not always mean absolutely no. It can mean, “yes, but I want you to be the instigator”. It can mean, “maybe, I want to fool around a bit and see how it goes first”. It can mean, “I want to fool around a bit but not have sex”. Maybe I’m missing your point. Because I think that post is three examples of women saying no to something they actually want. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/442 "2013-04-15T23:52:52Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Did she mean “yes” when she said no, or - at that moment in time, did she mean no. > > This is English. > > Because what you’ve said multiple times is that she didn’t really mean no. > > Did she, or did she not, give consent for sex, at that moment in time? What terminology would you like me to express this situation: A woman who wants to have sex but says no because of reason X? ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/443 "2013-04-15T23:53:38Z")
> [@treis](#): > > What terminology would you like me to express this situation: > > A woman who wants to have sex but says no because of reason X? **A woman who has not given consent for sex.** Period. Full stop. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/444 "2013-04-15T23:54:07Z")
Snipping for length/relevance: > [@panaccione](#): > > Let’s just say I have been _that_ guy. > > I am a guy who struggles with women on an intimate level. I’ve crossed some boundaries I probably shouldn’t have. I wish I could take them back but I can’t and it’s certainly something I’m ashamed of. I’m thankful that I never went too far in my younger days. Or, just lucky that none of these girls decided to press charges. > > I was young, dumb, angry, horny, intoxicated, inexperienced, frustrated, jealous, insecure, and desperate. I wanted someone to love very badly. Having that denied hurts. It does not excuse any actions of mine, but it explains where they come from. I don’t think I’m a monster, or scumbag. I’m a regular person wiho in the past had questionable morals and made some bad choices. Thankfully we’re in the pit, because I’m free to say this: You are absolutely, without a doubt, 100% a monstrous scumbag. My boyfriend was a virgin until he was 29 and met me, because (as he says) he was “terrible at women.” He was lonely and loveless and insecure and desperate and horny for a _very long time_. But because he’s not a monstrous scumbag, he never once resorted to groping or forcing himself onto a woman without her consent (FTR: he’s a fantastic lover). You are a goddamn disgusting human being, I hope you die alone, and I hope you internalize what Frylock said here so you don’t hurt any more women while cluelessly tralala-ing through life: > [@Frylock](#): > > You might not be normal. I don’t mean this as snark, I think it’s possible I’m actually informing you of something, and I mean it sincerely and constructively. If the above is what you assume is typical, then you might not be normal. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/445 "2013-04-15T23:55:46Z")
> [@treis](#): > > What terminology would you like me to express this situation: > > A woman who wants to have sex but says no because of reason X? She’s a women who said no. Every woman who says no has some reason! ---
**Author:** ![PurpleClogs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f04885/32.png) [@PurpleClogs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PurpleClogs)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/446 "2013-04-15T23:58:27Z")
I’m not siding with any of you here… Frankly I think this whole argument is just about the thrill of an argument because there’s at least 5 pages of repeated statements. Don’t you all have other things to do? Sheesh! In my younger days, before marriage, I did sleep with a few who I first turned down. I wasn’t raped. I just changed my mind. It happens! I’ve also said no and meant it and had guys keep at it for a bit. Are they rapists or harassing me? IMHO No. Just too eager and a bit rude. Harassment requires some kind of threat with it or consequence either verbal, physical, or by position of authority. Otherwise, it’s just a come on. And persecuting a come on for harassment or rape undermines the seriousness and credibility of REAL harassment and rape. So just agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/447 "2013-04-15T23:59:04Z")
Someone way, way upthread said this better than I’m going to. Whoever you were, you are wise indeed. > [@](#): > > Maybe I’m missing your point. Because I think that post is three examples of women saying no to something they actually want. And what the hell do you lose by taking a woman at her word (the word being “no”) when she means yes? You miss out on some pussy. Bust out the world’s tiniest violin. But the woman, if she did not want to have sex, won’t think you’re a creep. If she did in fact want to have sex but said no, world’s tiniest violin for her, too. She’ll survive, and she also maybe learns a lesson about playing games. Also, taking a small sample of the women you’ve had sex with (3 out of 10, yes?) and extrapolating that to mean that how those three acted is the same way all women act under those circumstances… that’s what’s giving people the vibe that you’re a creepy creeper who creeps. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/448 "2013-04-15T23:59:12Z")
> [@treis](#): > > What terminology would you like me to express this situation: > > A woman who wants to have sex but says no because of reason X? Here’s a better question: why do you think the fact that she wanted to have sex has any bearing on anything? You keep repeating that you believe once someone says no, it absolutely means you should not continue, right? So…why bring it up in a discussion like this? True or false, what relevance does it have to anything? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/449 "2013-04-15T23:59:40Z")
> [@PurpleClogs](#): > > Don’t you all have other things to do? Don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/450 "2013-04-16T00:00:32Z")
> [@PurpleClogs](#): > > I’m not siding with any of you here… Frankly I think this whole argument is just about the thrill of an argument because there’s at least 5 pages of repeated statements. Don’t you all have other things to do? Sheesh! > > In my younger days, before marriage, I did sleep with a few who I first turned down. I wasn’t raped. I just changed my mind. It happens! I’ve also said no and meant it and had guys keep at it for a bit. Are they rapists or harassing me? IMHO No. Just too eager and a bit rude. Harassment requires some kind of threat with it or consequence either verbal, physical, or by position of authority. Otherwise, it’s just a come on. And persecuting a come on for harassment or rape undermines the seriousness and credibility of REAL harassment and rape. > > So just agree to disagree. The most asinine post yet. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/451 "2013-04-16T00:02:10Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’m trying to hit everyone I can. > > Do I understand that? I’m reasonably certain that’s my entire point. I mean, what’s unclear about this: > > Maybe I’m missing your point. Because I think that post is three examples of women saying no to something they actually want. By saying this in the conversational context you said it in, (i.e. as a response to the question “why do guys think it’s okay to pursue me even after I’ve said no?”) you implied that the existence of examples like the three above shows it can be justifiable to pursue a woman after she has said “no.” ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/452 "2013-04-16T00:04:06Z")
> [@treis](#): > > What terminology would you like me to express this situation: > > A woman who wants to have sex but says no because of reason X? Ok, I think I understand the problem. You are presuming that since she wanted it, she was saying no out of some obligation to say no. And that, all things being equal, without that obligation she would have said yes. But her no was coerced by that other obligation. Is that how you view it? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/453 "2013-04-16T00:04:55Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > Snipping for length/relevance: > Thankfully we’re in the pit, because I’m free to say this: You are absolutely, without a doubt, 100% a monstrous scumbag. My boyfriend was a virgin until he was 29 and met me, because (as he says) he was “terrible at women.” He was lonely and loveless and insecure and desperate and horny for a _very long time_. But because he’s not a monstrous scumbag, he never once resorted to groping or forcing himself onto a woman without her consent (FTR: he’s a fantastic lover). > > You are a goddamn disgusting human being, I hope you die alone, and I hope you internalize what Frylock said here so you don’t hurt any more women while cluelessly tralala-ing through life: Well… later in the thread **Pan** did at least _say_ he believed he was coming to understand better how bad the things were that he had said before. So that’s something. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/454 "2013-04-16T00:10:16Z")
That’s sort of what he does, though. Says something horrible, gets beat up, beats himself up, tucks away and says “Oh, ok, I get it now. Rape is bad” and then comes back with a whole huge post about “I’m just trying to get at the root of the problem here, so I think that is, sexual frustration. Also ladies, you should protect yourselves better”. And then the whole behemoth falls down on him once more. I’m beginning to think he likes the punishment. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/455 "2013-04-16T00:13:17Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’m trying to hit everyone I can. _spit take_ Yeah. We got that. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/456 "2013-04-16T00:14:47Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Do I understand that? I’m reasonably certain that’s my entire point. I mean, what’s unclear about this: > > > [@](#): > > > > So the reality is that no does not always mean absolutely no. It can mean, “yes, but I want you to be the instigator”. It can mean, “maybe, I want to fool around a bit and see how it goes first”. It can mean, “I want to fool around a bit but not have sex”. > > Maybe I’m missing your point. Because I think that post is three examples of women saying no to something they actually want. Maybe we’re all missing your point or maybe you’re missing our point. I’ll try to explain in another way, using your words 1. “No does not always mean absolutely no” 2. “That post is three examples of women saying no to something they actually want” People are objecting to (1). You seem to be saying that if someone says ‘no’ to something they want (2), that means their ‘no’ doesn’t actually mean ‘no’ (1). We’re trying to say that even if they want it, their ‘no’ most certainly means ‘no’. People often say ‘no’ to something that they want. Even if they want something, they have decided ‘no’ (for a variety of possible reasons). But they still said ‘no’. And the no they said, means no, even if there is a bunch of subtext going on. But people are getting angry at you because you keep insisting that no doesn’t mean no (1), while repeating examples of ‘no’ (2). Forget sex. Think of chocolate fudge ice cream. Or that sexy motorbike. Or that new game. Even if you want it, you can still say no for other reasons, and that no that you said does mean absolutely no. Most of the time, ‘No’ does have a subtext beneath it. Possibilities include: No (I want to fool around a bit and see how it goes first) No (I want to fool around a bit but not have sex) No (not now, I want to wait until tomorrow), No (I haven’t shaved my legs and it will gross him out), No (I’m not 100% comfortable yet… 2 hours of chatting has passed and now I do feel comfortable, I might make a move so it’s obvious my no has changed to a yes) But they all absolutely mean ‘no’. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/457 "2013-04-16T00:17:19Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > That’s sort of what he does, though. Says something horrible, gets beat up, beats himself up, tucks away and says “Oh, ok, I get it now. Rape is bad” and then comes back with a whole huge post about “I’m just trying to get at the root of the problem here, so I think that is, sexual frustration. Also ladies, you should protect yourselves better”. And then the whole behemoth falls down on him once more. I’m beginning to think he likes the punishment. Maybe so, I’ve never really taken note of him before today. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/458 "2013-04-16T00:18:49Z")
Well I was just referring to his behavior on this topic actually. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/459 "2013-04-16T00:19:22Z")
> [@ugly ripe tomato](#): > > Someone way, way upthread said this better than I’m going to. Whoever you were, you are wise indeed. > > And what the hell do you lose by taking a woman at her word (the word being “no”) when she means yes? You miss out on some pussy. Bust out the world’s tiniest violin. But the woman, if she did not want to have sex, won’t think you’re a creep. If she did in fact want to have sex but said no, world’s tiniest violin for her, too. She’ll survive, and she also maybe learns a lesson about playing games. > > Also, taking a small sample of the women you’ve had sex with (3 out of 10, yes?) and extrapolating that to mean that how those three acted is the same way all women act under those circumstances… that’s what’s giving people the vibe that you’re a creepy creeper who creeps. Why have a beer at dinner and risk killing someone because you were driving drunk? Why not go to church every Sunday to avoid eternal damnation? Why talk on a cell phone and risk brain cancer? It’s simple. I feel that the chance of the negative outcome is sufficiently small compared to the enormity of the consequence. Like I said earlier in this thread, I don’t buy for a second that anyone is accidentally raping anyone. Rapists know full well what they are doing and don’t care, or their ability to read body language is off the charts terrible. I’m not willing going to rape anyone and I have enough confidence in my ability to read body language that I’m not going to accidentally do so. > [@Giraffe](#): > > Here’s a better question: why do you think the fact that she wanted to have sex has any bearing on anything? You keep repeating that you believe once someone says no, it absolutely means you should not continue, right? So…why bring it up in a discussion like this? True or false, what relevance does it have to anything? Absolutely should not continue with physical contact, yes definitely. But, to use my situation as an example, I don’t think it would have been wrong if I had said “Y’know I’m not going to think you’re a slut”. Of course, it’s wrong if it that is too intense and it becomes badgering or harassing. ---
**Author:** ![Patience\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@Patience\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patience_Jones)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/460 "2013-04-16T00:19:35Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > _spit take_ > > Yeah. We got that. Hee! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=24)