# Treis, no means no. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556 "2013-04-13T01:07:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/461 "2013-04-16T00:22:57Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Well… later in the thread **Pan** did at least _say_ he believed he was coming to understand better how bad the things were that he had said before. So that’s something. Compared to the trail of assault victims strewn behind his selfish careless staggeringly stupid ass, the amount of pity he’s entitled to is approximately, give or take, -37. And that doesn’t even take into account the countless girls he merely creeped out over the years. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/462 "2013-04-16T00:23:29Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Like I said earlier in this thread, I don’t buy for a second that anyone is accidentally raping anyone. Rapists know full well what they are doing and don’t care, or their ability to read body language is off the charts terrible. I’m not willing going to rape anyone and I have enough confidence in my ability to read body language that I’m not going to accidentally do so. You don’t have to be able to read body language. You just have to be able to understand spoken language. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/463 "2013-04-16T00:26:10Z")
> [@treis](#): > > But, to use my situation as an example, I don’t think it would have been wrong if I had said “Y’know I’m not going to think you’re a slut”. Of course, it’s wrong if it that is too intense and it becomes badgering or harassing. How about, “Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to push. Of course, if you don’t want to, that’s fine. Take all the time you need, beautiful. I’ll wait for you. Do you want to talk about it?” That way, you’re not thinking for her, you’re not deciding for her, you’re not pressuring or cajoling her. You’re treating her like an adult human being in control of her own body and mind. And \*that \*kind of response, more often than not, will give her the sense of respect and safety she needs to jump your bones with real hot enthusiastic consent. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/464 "2013-04-16T00:27:08Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > By saying this in the conversational context you said it in, (i.e. as a response to the question “why do guys think it’s okay to pursue me even after I’ve said no?”) you implied that the existence of examples like the three above shows it can be justifiable to pursue a woman after she has said “no.” In MOL’s case, no I don’t think it’s inherently wrong to try something given the situation. So long as it doesn’t cross the line to harassment or badgering. > [@Essured](#): > > Maybe we’re all missing your point or maybe you’re missing our point. I’ll try to explain in another way, using your words > > 1. “No does not always mean absolutely no” > 2. “That post is three examples of women saying no to something they actually want” > > People are objecting to (1). You seem to be saying that if someone says ‘no’ to something they want (2), that means their ‘no’ doesn’t actually mean ‘no’ (1). We’re trying to say that even if they want it, their ‘no’ most certainly means ‘no’. > > People often say ‘no’ to something that they want. Even if they want something, they have decided ‘no’ (for a variety of possible reasons). But they still said ‘no’. And the no they said, means no, even if there is a bunch of subtext going on. But people are getting angry at you because you keep insisting that no doesn’t mean no (1), while repeating examples of ‘no’ (2). Forget sex. Think of chocolate fudge ice cream. Or that sexy motorbike. Or that new game. Even if you want it, you can still say no for other reasons, and that no that you said does mean absolutely no. I don’t think there is much disagreement about what I mean. Just, apparently, what is an acceptable follow up. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking a second time. In fact, I’d say that outside of sexual situations that’s the norm. It’s only when you’re asking for the third and fourth and fifth time that you’ve crossed the line. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/465 "2013-04-16T00:28:10Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > (I’ve simply given up on \*\*treis \*\*at this point; I don’t think one more voice will make a difference, but…what they said.) > Taking this as a real question, and not rhetorical ('cause why not?)… > > \ > > Bottom line is _no one_, man, woman, boy, girl or other should have their body used for someone else’s amusement without clear, enthusiastic consent. Teach that, live that, and the rest follows. **WhyNot** just chiming in to say great post. A few years back I helped to run a youth outdoors group. It was composed of students from two single sex catholic schools (one boys, one girls). We had a lot of ex-students who had been throught he program and would come along on weekends to help out. One camp, one of the returning students (she would have been maybe 20 at the time) came to me visibly upset because one of the new students (a 14 year-old boy!) had felt her up. Myself and a few of the other adults pulled him aside and read him the riot act, when we told him it was sexual assult the little bastard just gave us a smirk and rolled his eyes. He lost that smile when we told him that under the rules we worked under it had to be reported to the police and school. Which we did of course, as well as kicking him off the camp and informing his parents of exactly _why_ they had to come 25Km out of town to get him. I’m actually planning to get back into the group later this year after taking a break to start a family. After reading this thread I think a “no means no” talk will become part of the training for the staffers and new kids when they start. (oh, and **treis** , you really are a gormless arsehole.) ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/466 "2013-04-16T00:34:18Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > How about, “Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to push. Of course, if you don’t want to, that’s fine. Take all the time you need, beautiful. I’ll wait for you. Do you want to talk about it?” > > That way, you’re not thinking for her, you’re not deciding for her, you’re not pressuring or cajoling her. You’re treating her like an adult human being in control of her own body and mind. > > And \*that \*kind of response, more often than not, will give her the sense of respect and safety she needs to jump your bones with real hot enthusiastic consent. Just sayin’. I’m not disagreeing with you. Because, as you may or may not recall, that’s what I did. But at this point the conversation moves from “Are you an asshole if you gently push?” to “Will gently pushing lead to the best outcome?”. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/467 "2013-04-16T00:34:45Z")
> [@treis](#): > > In MOL’s case, no I don’t think it’s inherently wrong to try something given the situation. So long as it doesn’t cross the line to harassment or badgering. > > I don’t think there is much disagreement about what I mean. Just, apparently, what is an acceptable follow up. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking a second time. In fact, I’d say that outside of sexual situations that’s the norm. It’s only when you’re asking for the third and fourth and fifth time that you’ve crossed the line. But that’s entirely the point everyone’s been making. The guy in MOL’s case did cross that line, despite her repeated and clear “NO”. He did keep pushing the third fourth and fifth time. And you keep going back to; “well he was justified in pushing (the third fourth and fifth times) because no doesn’t always mean no.” ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/468 "2013-04-16T00:36:18Z")
> [@maggenpye](#): > > But that’s entirely the point everyone’s been making. The guy in MOL’s case did cross that line, despite her repeated and clear “NO”. > > He did keep pushing the third fourth and fifth time. > > And you keep going back to; “well he was justified in pushing (the third fourth and fifth times) because no doesn’t always mean no.” And I said that where? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/469 "2013-04-16T00:40:02Z")
> [@treis](#): > > In MOL’s case, no I don’t think it’s inherently wrong to try something given the situation. So long as it doesn’t cross the line to harassment or badgering. > > I don’t think there is much disagreement about what I mean. Just, apparently, what is an acceptable follow up. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking a second time. In fact, I’d say that outside of sexual situations that’s the norm. It’s only when you’re asking for the third and fourth and fifth time that you’ve crossed the line. Did you maybe not read **MOL** ’s description of the scenario? Because he crossed the line to harassment and badgering pretty clearly. I don’t know that he _said_ anything, but of course, words are not required for harassment or badgering. He performed acts which amount to “asking” (probably too weak a word for it) far more than twice. All after a clearly expressed “no” and a clearly expressed agreement on his part that he understood that “no.” ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/470 "2013-04-16T00:40:18Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’m not disagreeing with you. Because, as you may or may not recall, that’s what I did. But at this point the conversation moves from “Are you an asshole if you gently push?” to “Will gently pushing lead to the best outcome?”. Argh! No! No pushing! Stop with the pushing! When I gave you that script, it’s all sincere. No pawing, no hopeful looks, no pushing! You back all the fuck the way off and you wait. You can ask if she wants to talk about her reasons, and then you shut your piehole and let her speak. Now the ball’s in her court. She said no, she’s got to woman up and make the first move. If she doesn’t, she’s either really no or got issues. Either one, you don’t want. It’s Two thousand and fucking thirteen. Women are allowed to like sex now. We can initiate sex now. Anyone who hasn’t gotten that memo is going to be a lousy lay anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/471 "2013-04-16T00:41:05Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’m not disagreeing with you. Because, as you may or may not recall, that’s what I did. But at this point the conversation moves from “Are you an asshole if you gently push?” to “Will gently pushing lead to the best outcome?”. I wonder if getting gently pushed will lead to the best outcome for your daughter. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/472 "2013-04-16T00:41:29Z")
Anyway, it _is_ wrong to try anything, even a first time, in the given situation. She said “no,” she said not only that but “I know this is often a yes signal, but I’m telling you straight out that it’s not,” she said “I’m not interested in you,” and he said “I understand all of that.” Once this conversation took place it was absolutely impermissible for him to try anythiing, even one time. ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/473 "2013-04-16T00:44:21Z")
bleah, it ain’t worth it ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/474 "2013-04-16T00:44:27Z")
First line of the post I quoted: [QUOTE= Treis] In MOL’s case, no I don’t think it’s inherently wrong to try something given the situation. [/QUOTE] and last line of the post I quoted: [QUOTE= Treis] It’s only when you’re asking for the third and fourth and fifth time that you’ve crossed the line. [/QUOTE] And one of many: [QUOTE=Treis] Because I think that post is three examples of women saying no to something they actually want. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/475 "2013-04-16T00:47:56Z")
> [@](#): > > In MOL’s case, no I don’t think it’s inherently wrong to try something given the situation. So long as it doesn’t cross the line to harassment or badgering. it crossed that line right away. that’s why she posted. that’s why you are in the pit. sweet mother.:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/476 "2013-04-16T00:48:49Z")
> [@treis](#): > > In MOL’s case, no I don’t think it’s inherently wrong to try something given the situation. So long as it doesn’t cross the line to harassment or badgering. But you realize he _did_ cross that line. Right? ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/477 "2013-04-16T00:55:38Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It’s simple. I feel that the chance of the negative outcome is sufficiently small compared to the enormity of the consequence. Because occasionally not getting laid is _such_ an enormous consequence. Why do we not have a “Putz!” smiley anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/478 "2013-04-16T01:03:05Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Because occasionally not getting laid is _such_ an enormous consequence. Why do we not have a “Putz!” smiley anymore? We used to have a “Putz!” smiley? What, was he wearing a little dunce cap? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/479 "2013-04-16T01:11:20Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > You know, that’s the best advice I have. Make as many platonic friends of the opposite sex you possibly can, and listen and learn from them. Takes the mystery and confusion right out of romance, it does. This is basically the best advice for dating/pursuing the opposite sex without being a horrible human being that could possibly exist. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/480 "2013-04-16T01:11:55Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Argh! No! No pushing! Stop with the pushing! When I gave you that script, it’s all sincere. No pawing, no hopeful looks, no pushing! You back all the fuck the way off and you wait. You can ask if she wants to talk about her reasons, and then you shut your piehole and let her speak. Now the ball’s in her court. She said no, she’s got to woman up and make the first move. If she doesn’t, she’s either really no or got issues. Either one, you don’t want. Ah, I missed the part where I appointed you arbiter of who I do and do not want to have sex with. But to more fully address your point, in an objective sense she does not have to woman up and make the first move. That’s not how the dating world works. Women, generally speaking, are buyers in the market and they can limit their choice to guys who make the first move if they want to. More broadly, no these women in my examples don’t have what I would call issues. They are all college educated career women. One’s an officer in the military and another owns her own business. There’s nothing abnormal about them in terms of the social role of women except for dating. I will agree that it’s really fucking annoying when they pick and choose to follow only the traditional gender roles that benefit women. But the reality is that dating is a numbers game. If you exclude X% of women for something you aren’t going to find out about until a few dates, well you’re going to waste a significant amount of effort. In an ideal world, I would not never play their game. But I’m not a perfect person and at times I’m willing to play their stupid game and give them what they want. > [@WhyNot](#): > > It’s Two thousand and fucking thirteen. Women are allowed to like sex now. We can initiate sex now. Anyone who hasn’t gotten that memo is going to be a lousy lay anyhow. Nope. And while I would love to agree with you that it’s two thousand and fucking thirteen and everything should be equal, the reality is that it’s not. The reality is that X% of women won’t ask out a guy or initiate physical contact because they think that’s the man’s job. Another Y% of women won’t do so because they think that the man will look down on them if they do. And the really fucked up thing is that they are right. There is a certain subset of men out there that will look at a women who asks them out or initiates sex as a slut and therefore not date-able. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=25)