# Treis, no means no. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556 "2013-04-13T01:07:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/481 "2013-04-16T01:11:56Z")
> [@treis](#): > > In MOL’s case, no I don’t think it’s inherently wrong to try something given the situation. So long as it doesn’t cross the line to harassment or badgering. And we’re trying to tell you that once you have been given a clear ‘no’, which MOL undoubtably did, ‘trying something’ _ **is** _ harassment and badgering. “Trying something” after you’ve just been told ‘no’ means you have decided that it’s ok to dismiss a clear ‘no’ to what you were trying to do and try something in the hopes the ‘no’ will change to a ‘yes’. And we’re saying that this is not acceptable. > [@](#): > > I don’t think there is much disagreement about what I mean. Just, apparently, what is an acceptable follow up. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking a second time. In fact, I’d say that outside of sexual situations that’s the norm. It’s only when you’re asking for the third and fourth and fifth time that you’ve crossed the line. There’s nothing wrong with ‘asking’ a second time. I’d agree with you that it’s the norm in a lot of situations. There’s a huge difference to asking and ‘trying something’ though. Scenario 1: Asking “Do you want some chocolate ice cream?” “No thanks” “Are you sure? It’s delicious, from this local gourmet place that churns it from fresh ingredients daily”, said while still holding the container (i.e, not filling a second bowl but also not putting it back in the fridge yet) Scenario 1: Trying something “Do you want some chocolate ice cream?” “No thanks” Trying to force the person to take a full bowl, or even trying to spoon some into their mouth. See the difference? So you’re on a date, you get told no to sex. You chat some more, maybe watch a movie, and ask again, without being pushy. That’s ok, she may have changed her mind in the intervening time period. What’s not ok is being told no, but continuing to act as if she might mean yes, like say ‘trying something’ by sliding a hand up her thigh towards her vagina. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/482 "2013-04-16T01:13:52Z")
> [@maggenpye](#): > > First line of the post I quoted: > > and last line of the post I quoted: > And one of many: Which of these is supposed to show that I support the guy badgering MOL? Because I’m reasonably certain the middle one shows I specifically wouldn’t approve of it. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/483 "2013-04-16T01:14:53Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Because occasionally not getting laid is _such_ an enormous consequence. Why do we not have a “Putz!” smiley anymore? Because people like you would use it when they don’t understand the point of a post. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/484 "2013-04-16T01:15:49Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > Snipping for length/relevance: > Thankfully we’re in the pit, because I’m free to say this: You are absolutely, without a doubt, 100% a monstrous scumbag. My boyfriend was a virgin until he was 29 and met me, because (as he says) he was “terrible at women.” He was lonely and loveless and insecure and desperate and horny for a _very long time_. But because he’s not a monstrous scumbag, he never once resorted to groping or forcing himself onto a woman without her consent (FTR: he’s a fantastic lover). > > You are a goddamn disgusting human being, I hope you die alone, and I hope you internalize what Frylock said here so you don’t hurt any more women while cluelessly tralala-ing through life: Ok, I admit I was way off with some of the things I said. I do get it now. The onus is on men to recognize and respect boundaries, signs, words and not commit assault and/or rape. I’m not sure if you saw it, but I did say that already. I’m really in no position to defend myself or expect any sympathy. I’m not going to go back on what I said. If sexual frustration is the cause, then tough shit. That’s no excuse for assault. I am _ **not,** _ without a doubt, a 100% monstrous scumbag or goddamn disgusting human being though. People make mistakes and do bad things. I doubt this excludes you. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/485 "2013-04-16T01:16:07Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Because people like you would use it when they don’t understand the point of a post. Then what was your point, exactly? What was the “enormity of the consequence” that you alluded to in your analogy above? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/486 "2013-04-16T01:21:11Z")
> [@treis](#): > > In MOL’s case, no I don’t think it’s inherently wrong to try something given the situation. So long as it doesn’t cross the line to harassment or badgering. [QUOTE=MOL’s OP] I’m not one to mislead, and **so I made it very clear to him that while I understand whenever a date invites you up for any reason (to meet her cat, to check out her art collection, to watch that movie she was telling you about), it’s a poorly veiled excuse to make with the funny business, but this was NOT the case.** The case here is he’s been cool beans and I didn’t want to have him standing in the pouring rain with no umbrella waiting for a cab for 15 min.\*\* He says he understands fully and thanks me for being nice about it\*\*. [/QUOTE] Where in her description of the scenario is any indication that there was room to “try something”. Even in your “no sometime’s means yes” world, isn’t there a place for no actually meaning no? How more clear could she have been? Should she have made him sign something? (bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/487 "2013-04-16T01:22:52Z")
Well, hell. This guy’s dating, and swears he can read signals but also admits he can’t determine if a woman is faking an orgasm. Thanks, member search. I was annoyed, now I’m disturbed by this putz. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/488 "2013-04-16T01:29:39Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Which of these is supposed to show that I support the guy badgering MOL? Because I’m reasonably certain the middle one shows I specifically wouldn’t approve of it. [QUOTE=treis] In MOL’s case, no I don’t think it’s inherently wrong to try something given the situation. [/QUOTE] Which part of that doesn’t support the guy whom it was stated _was already_ badgering MOL? Are you saying that his behaviour would have been fine had he been actually acting in a different way? ETA because I’d also be fine with his behaviour had he not been badgering MOL. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/489 "2013-04-16T01:35:10Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Which of these is supposed to show that I support the guy badgering MOL? Because I’m reasonably certain the middle one shows I specifically wouldn’t approve of it. The fact that you posted at all shows that. The conversation, paraphrased, went like this: MOL: “I preemptively told him no, and he went for it a bunch of times anyway with me telling him no each time.” And then, after your bullshit argument about the phone, you said > [@treis](#): > > This is how the dating world works. I believe there have been exactly three recorded instances of a woman inviting a man on the first date back to her apartment with the explicit purpose to have sex. To paraphrase Robin from How I Met Your Mother: “A Lady invents a respectable excuse to invite a man over when she wants to get stuck real good. It’s called class”. **Her complaint is essentially “I sent mixed signals and a guy got the wrong idea”. _YAWN_** You can backpedal all you want, but the bolded text is a clear show of support for the malefactor. You probably HAVE raped someone, in the sense that you browbeat or intimidated her into doing something she didn’t want to, and it’s just your good fucking luck that no one’s bothered to go to the cops yet due to the cultural morass currently surrounding that. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/490 "2013-04-16T02:00:38Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Ignore corroborating evidence (Latia’s cite has been essentially ignored) My name is Lamia, and you have ignored most of the content of my cite and cherry-picked the one number (37% of respondents) that supports your pre-existing position. Funnily enough, this is exactly what **MOL** [predicted you would do](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16193349&postcount=199). According to Shotland and Hunter, with regard to women who’d agreed that they had at some point said “no” when they wanted to have sex: “Our data indicate that approximately 83% of these women had a different intention earlier in the encounter before the incident [of saying ‘no’]…They began by not intending to have sex, may have gone through a period of uncertainty, and then intended to engage in coitus.” In other words, when they said “no” they _didn’t_ want to have sex, but later changed their minds. Why would a woman agree on a survey that she had at some point said “no” to sex she wanted if this wasn’t what actually happened? Shortland and Hunter suggest that this was because respondents were asked this question at the beginning of the survey and had not yet reflected on exactly what happened. Later questions on the survey asked for a timeline of events and also what the woman’s reasons were for saying “no”. Here’s Shortland and Hunter again: “In essence, they remember saying ‘no’ and they wanted to have sex, but they do not remember the timing of these events. They assume simultaneity unless they are prodded with cues like our sexual time line or by a request for their reasons for their behavior.” That leaves about 6% of respondents (17% of 37%) who Shortland and Hunter consider to have actually said “no” to sex they really wanted. That’s more than zero, but it’s a small minority. And remember, these aren’t women who said they _always_ or even _frequently_ said “no” when they wanted to have sex, only that they’d done so at least once. For many it had been _exactly_ once. So based on this study, the odds that a given sexual encounter will involve a woman who says “no” but really means “yes” must be quite low indeed. They are so low that “no means no” seems like very good advice for men who don’t want to be rapists. > [@treis](#): > > Like I said earlier in this thread, I don’t buy for a second that anyone is accidentally raping anyone. Rapists know full well what they are doing and don’t care, or their ability to read body language is off the charts terrible. There’s an old but fairly well-known study I’ve cited on these boards a number of times before\* that deals with the question of how rapists explain their own behavior. Of the convicted rapists they interviewed, 41% admitted that they were rapists, 31% said that they were innocent and had never had any sexual contact with the victims at all, and 28% said they were innocent because their sexual contact with the victims was totally consensual. But when asked to describe these “consensual” encounters, many of these men described encounters that sure didn’t _sound_ consensual. The woman had often said “no” and/or struggled physically, and sometimes even had to be threatened with a weapon before she’d submit. One convict claimed that a woman stripped off her clothes and begged him for sex _while he was robbing her home_. Another explained that “All women say ‘no’ when they mean ‘yes’”. This was a man convicted of kidnapping and raping a 15 year old girl at knifepoint. Perhaps these convicts actually understand perfectly well that they’re rapists and are simply not intelligent enough to come up with a plausible sounding cover story about consensual sex. Or perhaps they sincerely believe that “no” means “yes”. There’s no way to know for sure, but there do exist convicted rapists who describe situations that clearly meet the legal standard for rape but still claim they’re innocent because the victim “really” wanted it. While I certainly hope you’ve never raped anyone, your posts about how sometimes “no” means “yes” and you’re certain you can tell what a woman _really_ wants do remind me of what some of these convicted rapists said about themselves. \*Diana Scully and Joseph Marolla’s “Convicted Rapists’ Vocabulary of Motive: Excuses and Justifications” _Social Problems_, Vol. 31, No. 5, Jun., 1984, pp. 530-544 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/491 "2013-04-16T02:23:22Z")
Now I’m curious, treis. If the woman in your scenario had said yes that first time, then before you ever had a second time she said, “Well, I said yes but I really wanted to say no. I didn’t because I didn’t want you to think I was a tease.” Would you now be arguing that sometimes yes doesn’t mean yes? Or is a yes when she wants to say no a yes and a no when she wants to say yes is… also a yes? In other words, do her secret motivations only matter when they are to your benefit, or are the always the definitive answer? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/492 "2013-04-16T02:44:17Z")
> [@treis](#): > > There is a certain subset of men out there that will look at a women who asks them out or initiates sex as a slut and therefore not date-able. Yeah, this subset of men exists, but so what? I’m only attracted to men who can appreciate a sexually assertive woman. Catering to those who would view me with disdain if they knew my true side is like shooting myself in the face. So I don’t concern myself with these fools. Why do you not find it off-putting to be with women who have to be cajoled multiple times to sleep with you? Doesn’t that take some of the ego-gratification out of sex? To keep your pride intact, I think you pretty much have to convince yourself that women mean yes when they say no. So it’s pretty much a given that you’re too emotionally invested in your position to consider any other alternative view. I do kind of feel sorry for you. A confident, self-assured, intelligent woman who tells you no and means it _will not want to date someone who persists in the face of no_. To me personally, a very persistent man is a turnoff not just because of boundary stepping and the whole rapey thing, but because begging (and that’s what it is) smacks of pure desperation. Savvy women steer clear of desperate men because, wrongly or rightly, they take it as a sign of reject-worthy problems. Only a woman in need of unhealthy amounts of validation who not be troubled or annoyed by this. It’s also a very juvenile way of interacting with the opposite sex. Bottom line: your dating strategy sucks because your tactics are selecting for women who are NOT confident, self-assured, and/or smart. Odds are you’re doing this because you don’t think you can get any better. And maybe this is true, I don’t know. But what’s clear is that this isn’t a “woman thing”. It’s a “you thing”. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/493 "2013-04-16T03:18:19Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Like I said earlier in this thread, I don’t buy for a second that anyone is accidentally raping anyone. Rapists know full well what they are doing and don’t care, or their ability to read body language is off the charts terrible. I’m not willing going to rape anyone and I have enough confidence in my ability to read body language that I’m not going to accidentally do so. So I was raped. I was on a business trip. My boss had been coming onto me. I had said no. I went to bed, in my own room, I woke up to find him on top of me, having sex. So after a lot of legal maneuvering, some threats, eventually, I was moved to a job outside my specialty (this is how I got into IT, they plopped me into something I wasn’t qualified to do because they had to do something) and he was given counseling. A few years later I was talking to the attorney who’d handled the case for the company. He was gone, the case was resolved, and she did something highly unprofessional - she dished. And he didn’t think he’d done anything wrong. I’d wanted it. And six months after that, I had a session with the corporate psychologist after a large series of layoffs (HR used the excuse to take my temperature, they did this as long as I worked for them, in one of those cover your butt, extremely offensive, blame the victim moves). He made the same highly unprofessional confession and told me the same thing. Both also told me I’d been treated like crap by the company and the reason they were telling me was because they wanted me to know that. And both wanted me to know that despite the company line, they both felt I’d been raped (neither of them had ever heard my side of the story from me). There are guys who rape who do not recognize that their actions were rape. I have a similar story involving a friend of mine and a male acquaintance. She believes she was raped. He thinks that she wanted it and her protests to the contrary were just covering up some sort of need to not be seen as a slut. Which, he pointed out to our mutual male friends, she was, so it really wasn’t a valid concern anyway. Now, my friend has had a lot of sexual partners, but she did not choose this one. Our mutual male friends have nothing to do with him now. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/494 "2013-04-16T03:29:19Z")
Shit. For many years _ **I** _ didn’t know if I had been raped. You know who set me straight? My rapist. I’ll never until I die forget his words on the phone. “I did it. I raped you, and I’m so, so sorry.” All those years wondering (actually, fearing) that I’d sent mixed signals and led him on. All those years wondering if I’d gotten hysterical and falsely accused him. All those years worried that _I’d_ ruined \*his \*life. Nope. “I did it. I raped you, and I’m so, so sorry.” That was nearly 20 years after the event. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/495 "2013-04-16T03:32:32Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > 25% is the figure for rapes. > > If you’ve been following along, it is damn near 100% for “minor” sexual assaults (groping, pinching, forced kisses, etc.). Yes, I know. I just talked with my best friend (who is the GF of my other best friend) and she reported much the same. Not that these infringements were gross violations, but they were assaults. I knew it was pervasive and I have done my level best to prevent them successfully but the level of pervasiveness boggles me. Hrrrr… This really needs to change. Just talked to SO and she agrees as well. Is this not the 21st Century? ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/496 "2013-04-16T03:39:14Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > … > Bottom line is _no one_, man, woman, boy, girl or other should have their body used for someone else’s amusement without clear, enthusiastic consent. Teach that, live that, and the rest follows. I agree because, after all, **WhyNot**? Great post. I will take it to heart. Especially the ‘kissing the aunt thing’. You made some great points. Thanks. Seriously, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/497 "2013-04-16T04:29:53Z")
**Treis** , this is why sometimes people still don’t see it as abuse when women slap men. Because sometimes it’s the only way to stop it. And if someone said to me, “Y’know I’m not going to think you’re a slut”, I’ll admit, I’d be pretty tempted. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/498 "2013-04-16T04:36:31Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Treis** , this is why sometimes people still don’t see it as abuse when women slap men. Because sometimes it’s the only way to stop it. And if someone said to me, “Y’know I’m not going to think you’re a slut”, I’ll admit, I’d be pretty tempted. WTF? How the fuck is this appropriate? ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/499 "2013-04-16T05:07:05Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > WTF? How the fuck is this appropriate? I don’t know, if I told a guy no, then he came back and said lecherously, “You know, _I_ won’t think you’re slut” (implying everyone else does), it’d take quite a bit of self control to not slap him. I wouldn’t, of course, unless he touched me again. That statement, beyond everything else, is condescending as fuck. I don’t care if some weirdo thinks I’m a slut and for some dude I clearly don’t know well to assume his opinion means so much . . . if I had been turned on, I wouldn’t be anymore. I don’t just go around slapping people all willy nilly, but if you don’t take no for an answer and get physical first, well, I’ll do what I have to in order to get you off of me. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/500 "2013-04-16T05:49:16Z")
I’d like to dedicate this to you guys and the threads. I hear you. [Post Secret](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32j1wWJt0w0) I’m going to bow out, now. No hard feelings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=26)