# Treis, no means no. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556 "2013-04-13T01:07:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/521 "2013-04-17T03:46:03Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I completely agree with doing everything you think is appropriate if someone is touching you. But for her to say that this is why people don’t see women slapping men as abuse is a stupid damned thing to say. > > Otherwise, yeah, I agree with all of the people saying that a dude who would say that is just gross. Yes, I probably should have phrased that better. I’m not saying I personally see it that way, FWIW. That slapping a man isn’t abuse, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/522 "2013-04-17T18:23:38Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > > [@Anonymous User](#): > > > > > [@Anaamika](#): > > > > > > Once I got a phone call. A man answered and asked for my dad. I was about eight, and had been taught never to say I was home alone, so I said he was in the shower. **What did he say? “Why don’t you join him in there, honey?”** in the most laviscious tone imaginable. > > > > Okay, that made me laugh. 😃 Sorry. > > It makes me laugh _now_, too. It didn’t make me laugh at eight. Sorry for bumping this thread and asking this so late, but what was your reaction at eight? ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/523 "2013-04-17T18:31:58Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Sorry for bumping this thread and asking this so late, but what was your reaction at eight? Yeah, can you relive the horrible pain you probably felt at that time for the sake of us spectators here on the message board? Pro tip: how do you _think_ she felt? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/524 "2013-04-17T18:39:31Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Sorry for bumping this thread and asking this so late, but what was your reaction at eight? Shame and humiliation. A strong feeling that I had somehow done something to encourage this sort of behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/525 "2013-04-17T18:39:38Z")
8-year-old me’s reaction probably would have been “what for?” My mother, despite having given birth to 6 children, is quite a prude and I didn’t learn “the facts of life” until junior high. Although it’s kind of amusing to picture Mr. Creepy on the other end of the line with his face beet red and slamming down the receiver fast as he could. It’s also amusing to picture what my dad would have done to him after I asked him in my innocent childlike way, “Daddy, why did Mr. Creepy tell me I should get in the shower with you?” ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/526 "2013-04-17T18:41:00Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Pro tip: how do you _think_ she felt? I wasn’t asking how she felt, but what her reaction was. Anyway, I agree it was a silly bump. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/527 "2013-04-17T18:41:32Z")
I remember the blood rushing to my face. It’s not like I knew a damn thing about sex, but I knew what he was suggesting was _dirty_ and not right. ETA: What my _reaction_ was? I hung up the phone and never told my parents what had transpired. ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/528 "2013-04-17T18:44:22Z")
While I’m at it… Anaamika, I do admire you for being able to remember the good stuff about your dad, get past the bad parts, and mend fences with him as an adult; I completely don’t think I’m a strong enough person to be able to forgive a breach of trust like that. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/529 "2013-04-17T18:58:47Z")
Well, thank you. 🙂 As I said, the good doesn’t take the bad away, but the bad can’t quite take the good away either. I don’t know if it’s good or bad to forgive him and move on but I do know it’s what is good for me. I still feel guilty over not making a better effort to reconcile with my mom before she died. I won’t feel the same guilt when dad dies, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/530 "2013-04-17T19:04:10Z")
Just my few tokens… > [@treis](#): > > I am not a crusader out to right any wrong. There’s no motivation behind my post besides what motivates the rest of us to post here. I don’t know what’s unclear about my participation in the thread was. The essential point of the original thread was: > > “Guys, Y U no listen?” > > “Because some women don’t always mean no when they say no.” > > Cue about 15 pages of people calling me an asshole. I haven’t read the whole thread, so I hazard my guess here, but I think they are calling you that because you aren’t listening… > [@treis](#): > > What terminology would you like me to express this situation: > > A woman who wants to have sex but says no because of reason X? I fail to see how this is a difficult question - the woman in question **does not want to have sex** - and she’s even given you a reason as to why. Where is the mystery here? Where is her ‘no’ that really means ‘yes’? For godsake, in your example you’ve included a reason that she does not want to have sex with you. > [@WhyNot](#): > > How about, “Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to push. Of course, if you don’t want to, that’s fine. Take all the time you need, beautiful. I’ll wait for you. Do you want to talk about it?” > > That way, you’re not thinking for her, you’re not deciding for her, you’re not pressuring or cajoling her. You’re treating her like an adult human being in control of her own body and mind. > > And \*that \*kind of response, more often than not, will give her the sense of respect and safety she needs to jump your bones with real hot enthusiastic consent. Just sayin’. > [@treis](#): > > I’m not disagreeing with you. Because, as you may or may not recall, that’s what I did. But at this point the conversation moves from “Are you an asshole if you gently push?” to “Will gently pushing lead to the best outcome?”. Personally speaking, it appears to me that you are disagreeing with her. If you state what WhyNot said: _“Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to push. Of course, if you don’t want to, that’s fine. Take all the time you need, beautiful. I’ll wait for you. Do you want to talk about it?”_ and then **gently push** you are essentially **lying to the woman who you just reassured that you didn’t mean to push**. The way I read WhyNot is that you put the ball in the woman’s court. The woman already knows what you’d like, there is no need to push or prod from that point on. If the woman is uncertain then the statement that WhyNot provided will allow **her** to speak to \*\*you \*\*and to make up her **own mind** about it. > [@treis](#): > > Ah, I missed the part where I appointed you arbiter of who I do and do not want to have sex with. But to more fully address your point, in an objective sense she does not have to woman up and make the first move. That’s not how the dating world works. Women, generally speaking, are buyers in the market and they can limit their choice to guys who make the first move if they want to. Seriously are you just pushing your point of view in this thread until people say yes? This seems seriously absurd to me. You have removed the ‘no’ from the above equation. The woman in the equation has told you no, she doesn’t want sex. So in that situation if she wants to change her mind, YES the onus is on her. This isn’t a ‘generally speaking’ situation, this is a very specific situation. > [@treis](#): > > Nope. > > And while I would love to agree with you that it’s two thousand and fucking thirteen and everything should be equal, the reality is that it’s not. The reality is that X% of women won’t ask out a guy or initiate physical contact because they think that’s the man’s job. Another Y% of women won’t do so because they think that the man will look down on them if they do. And the really fucked up thing is that they are right. There is a certain subset of men out there that will look at a women who asks them out or initiates sex as a slut and therefore not date-able. Here you are going back to generalities instead of focusing on the specific circumstance of when a woman has already told you ‘no’. **You’ve already initiated the physical contact** (or at least the indication that you would like physical contact) - she **has rejected it**. Ball is in her court, not yours. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/531 "2013-04-17T19:18:42Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Seriously are you just pushing your point of view in this thread until people say yes? That seems to be his standard M.O., doesn’t it. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/532 "2013-04-18T04:26:20Z")
> [@ugly ripe tomato](#): > > 8-year-old me’s reaction probably would have been “what for?” > > My mother, despite having given birth to 6 children, is quite a prude and I didn’t learn “the facts of life” until junior high. > > Although it’s kind of amusing to picture Mr. Creepy on the other end of the line with his face beet red and slamming down the receiver fast as he could. It’s also amusing to picture what my dad would have done to him after I asked him in my innocent childlike way, “Daddy, why did Mr. Creepy tell me I should get in the shower with you?” At 8 I would have just thought “I don’t think I need to right now, why?” Around 8 I was still taking showers with my parents on the (very) rare occasion. It was mostly if we had a function to get to early in the day and needed to wash up quickly, having two of us at a time made things quicker. We wore bathing suits, though. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/533 "2013-04-19T06:41:20Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’ve just had an aha moment with you mentioning ROI. I think treis may not be misogynistic, but rather misanthropic. It’s not that he discounts the feelings of women. He discounts the feelings of anyone other than himself. It’s Objectivism being applied to dating and personal relationships. > > Unfortunately, like Objectivism, in the short term, it appears to work. ROI? Return on Investment? Region of Interest ? Republic Of Ireland? Report Of Investigation? Reactive Oxygen Intermediate? Registration of Interest? I give. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/534 "2013-04-19T14:32:45Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > At 8 I would have just thought “I don’t think I need to right now, why?” Around 8 I was still taking showers with my parents on the (very) rare occasion. It was mostly if we had a function to get to early in the day and needed to wash up quickly, having two of us at a time made things quicker. We wore bathing suits, though. Luxury. My parents used to take me down to the river and beat me on the rocks. But you tell young people that today, and they’ll never believe you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/535 "2013-04-19T14:34:32Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > At 8 I would have just thought “I don’t think I need to right now, why?” Around 8 I was still taking showers with my parents on the (very) rare occasion. It was mostly if we had a function to get to early in the day and needed to wash up quickly, having two of us at a time made things quicker. We wore bathing suits, though. I don’t know. I think the level of skeeviness in his voice would have gotten through to anyone. I was a particularly innocent eight-year-old and I got it. ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/536 "2013-04-19T15:14:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Luxury. My parents used to take me down to the river and beat me on the rocks. > > But you tell young people that today, and they’ll never believe you. > > Regards, > Shodan And I bet they had to drag you uphill. Both ways. Through 3 feet of snow, even in August, because it built character, dammit! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/537 "2013-04-19T15:40:07Z")
And we were grateful for it! And none of this namby-pamby dating business - if a woman stood downwind of you, you were engaged. And courtship was standing outside piling up dirt into the shape of farm animals, and whoever had the best pile got the girl. Kids today. I’m telling ya. They don’t know how good they got it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/538 "2013-04-19T16:41:32Z")
Hmph, you hoity-toity snobs with your fancy “dirt.” We hadda chew on granite boulders and make our own dirt. Real dirt, not that namby-pamby stuff you fancy-pantsy people pick up off the ground and call dirt. ---
**Author:** ![Tassvarg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@Tassvarg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tassvarg)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/539 "2013-04-19T17:47:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Luxury. My parents used to take me down to the river and beat me on the rocks. > > But you tell young people that today, and they’ll never believe you. The young people of today have good reasons for that. I am sure your parents had equally good reasons. ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/540 "2013-04-19T19:36:13Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I know. I’m glad you appreciate it. It’s taken this long to process why I was upset more by this quote than the video. Your statement seems to be rather flip, and doesn’t seem take into account how horrible the subject matter really is. I may be misinterpreting, but it seems that while posting the video is something I actually approve of, your response to my response was hurtful, intentional or not. It seems to dismiss my pain as appreciation for your cleverness in finding a relevant video. I don’t appreciate it. I don’t appreciate being triggered and feeling handled and dismissed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=28)