# Treis, no means no. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556 "2013-04-13T01:07:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/141 "2013-04-13T22:09:01Z")
I really try to view both sides of an issue and at the risk of an enormous shitstorm raining down upon me (I can only imagine, seeing as what happened to **Dr. Butts** ), playing devil’s advocate for **Treis** … MOL, as up front as you were, you could have been more up front. Like, “Call the cab. Call the cab now. What are you doing? Why aren’t you calling the cab? We can take the tour and then sit on the couch after you call the cab.” up front. You weren’t stringing him along but you were slow to extinguish fires of passion at the same time. [/devil’s advocate] That doesn’t excuse the guy’s actions. He’s still a twit. I’m not saying you were asking for it but you weren’t doing yourself any favors either. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/142 "2013-04-13T22:18:15Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > My cite that you are a retard? Your post is my cite, tard. Want for sig. Can I have? > [@delphica](#): > > I’m beginning to think he might be on to something, if prostitution were legal, **MoL** could have called him a cab AND a prostitute. Win-win! You’re a cab! You’re a prostitute! You’re a cab! You’re a prostitute! > [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > pussy opportunities of yore I’m tempted to change my dopername to **Pussy Opportunities of Yore** , if only to have one half as cool as **AClockworkMelon**. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/143 "2013-04-13T22:41:01Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Want for sig. Can I have? No. Okay I meant yes. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/144 "2013-04-13T22:52:24Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > You’re a cab! You’re a prostitute! You’re a cab! You’re a prostitute! [Better than what I make _my_ partners say.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6T6veL5zWM&t=2m50s) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/145 "2013-04-13T23:07:10Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > No. > > Okay I meant yes. I laughed really, embarrassingly, loudly at that. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/146 "2013-04-13T23:21:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I disagree. > > He could have called from the bar–BUT he was walking her home, and if he called from the bar, he’d not have been able to do that. > He could have called once they got there–BUT then he’d have to stand in the rain. > > The way the evening went, what he did, and what MOL, were both perfectly sensible up to the point where he got inside the apartment. He should have planned ahead. But the fact that he didnt reinforces his creepo status. Needing to be in her apartment to call a cab gave him an excuse to himself to act that way. I’ve heard of this happening to women many times. Had I been on the date, I would have had the common sense to have a phone with me, so if it was raining I could call my own cab and not make MOL potentially uncomfortable by waiting in her apartment for one. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/147 "2013-04-14T00:02:31Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Well, I’ve never raped, sexually harassed, drugged, or assaulted a woman and neither have any of my friends. Are you sure about that? How do you know? Because what I’m hearing is that you keep advancing sexually on a woman who says no. That’s the behavior you’re telling us you engage in. That’s pretty much the very definition of sexual harassment. I don’t care if she’s a fucking game player (and I don’t dispute they exist), it doesn’t give you a free pass to play the game yourself. Just say no. Don’t stick your dick in the crazy. I know it can be confusing. Some women \*do \*say no when they mean yes. Some women say no when they mean no, and then don’t say anything at all because they’re scared or ashamed of themselves or ambivalent. You know how you can tell the difference? You can’t. [Don’t be that guy.](http://www.theviolencestopshere.ca/dbtg.php) The only way to know for sure that you’re not raping or sexually assaulting someone is to only have sex with people who say _yes_. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/148 "2013-04-14T00:12:08Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > Had I been on the date, I would have had the common sense to have a phone with me, so if it was raining I could call my own cab and not make MOL potentially uncomfortable by waiting in her apartment for one. He had a phone: > [@OP](#): > > So I say “Do you need me to call the cab? Because I’ll call a cab for you if you can’t do that.” I then start going through my phone, fixing to make the call my damn self, when he finally gets with the fucking program, calls a cab, then leaves. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/149 "2013-04-14T00:28:44Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Are you sure about that? How do you know? Because what I’m hearing is that you keep advancing sexually on a woman who says no. That’s the behavior you’re telling us you engage in. That’s pretty much the very definition of sexual harassment. If I did they didn’t seem too put off about it because they kept dating me. > [@WhyNot](#): > > I don’t care if she’s a fucking game player (and I don’t dispute they exist), it doesn’t give you a free pass to play the game yourself. Just say no. Don’t stick your dick in the crazy. _shrug_ After that initial bout of crazy I enjoyed my relationship with them. Essentially there are three options with dealing with women like this: (1) Don’t stick your dick in the crazy, as you put it. (2) Wait them out and make them explicitly request every level of intimacy (3) Play their stupid fucking game Each has it’s pluses and minuses. (1) is the simplest solution, but you are writing off X% of the population, and typically these women aren’t crazy in other ways. Plus, it’s not like these people have external markings. It’s easy to say just write them off, but it’s harder to do when your 4 dates in and you kind of like them. (2) is annoying and inefficient to my engineer brain. (3) Gets everyone what they want at the risk of the guy making an ass of himself or worse. I’ve done each of these at different points in my life and I can’t say any is better than the other. It just comes down to what you are looking for, how much effort you want to put in, and what risk you want to take. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/150 "2013-04-14T00:34:20Z")
WhyNot, you don’t understand. If they don’t pursue the girl who says no, they don’t get to have sex with that girl. And that will HAUNT THEM FOREVER. Why do you want to traumatize men like that? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/151 "2013-04-14T00:39:48Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This is an excellent explanation of the cultural environment that leads to fucked up attitudes about sex. One of the results of this is that there is a subset of women that want to have sex but don’t want to feel like their sluts. The solution for them is that they want to be talked into it. It’s fucked up, but it’s a real phenomenon. I have no idea how common it is, but some variation of that attitude has been present in three of the girls I’ve slept with. Since that represents about 30% of the people I’ve slept with, I can only assume it’s relatively common. > > So the reality is that no does not always mean absolutely no. It can mean, “yes, but I want you to be the instigator”. It can mean, “maybe, I want to fool around a bit and see how it goes first”. It can mean, “I want to fool around a bit but not have sex”. > > I know what the reaction is going to be. And that’s “I don’t do this and neither do any of my friends”. Well, I’ve never raped, sexually harassed, drugged, or assaulted a woman and neither have any of my friends. Yet, these things happen. The logical explanation for this is that either my friends don’t do these things, but other people do, or that my friends do these things but don’t admit to it. > > So here’s how I’ll put it. I can count the number of people I’ve slept with using both my hands and I’ve heard (paraphrased for brevity): > > I wanted to sleep with you but I didn’t want you to think I’m a slut > > I want to sleep with you, but I’m a good girl > > I’d rather booty call my ex because I don’t want my number to go up > > I never make the first move (sexually). That’s the man’s job. > > If we’re just friends and sleeping together, that makes me a slut > > You can think I’m lying or that there’s something wrong with these women, but neither would be correct. I’m not lying and these women are otherwise normal appearing college educated professional women. It’s pretty simple. Just treat every no as a real no. If she actually means yes, she’ll find a way to let you know, unless she’s batshit crazy. If she says no, then quit pressing for sex. Men sometimes underestimate just how intimidating they can be. You might not THINK that you are threatening her, but you are almost certainly alone with her in a secluded area. If you keep pressing her, she has no reason to believe that you’ll back off. She’s said no once, and you have ignored it. Why should she expect your behavior to change? YOU HAVE ALREADY SHOWN THAT YOU DON’T RESPECT HER BOUNDARIES. If her experiences are anything like most women’s, then she has a reasonable fear that you will get offended if she keeps saying no, and that you might escalate into violence. Maybe you’ll respect her second no. Maybe her third? Or maybe you’ll just quit asking, and start taking. She doesn’t know. And she might prefer to get raped without being beaten. Because she doesn’t know how many times she can say no without pushing you too far. Maybe you’ll back off, but maybe you won’t. If she says no, then respect the no. > **[An Incomplete Guide to Not Creeping](https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/08/09/an-incomplete-guide-to-not-creeping/)** > > The last couple of months have been a really interesting time for geekdom, as its had its face rubbed in the fact that there are a lot of creepy assbags among its number, and that geekdom is not al… ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/152 "2013-04-14T00:40:53Z")
> [@treis](#): > > (3) Gets everyone what they want at the risk of the guy making an ass of himself or worse. Worse meaning… rape? Risking being a rapist is _much, much worse_ than maybe not getting to have sex this one time. If you do not see this, than there is something unfixably wrong with you. Not that that would be much of a surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/153 "2013-04-14T00:46:26Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If I did they didn’t seem too put off about it because they kept dating me. > > _shrug_ After that initial bout of crazy I enjoyed my relationship with them. Essentially there are three options with dealing with women like this: > > (1) Don’t stick your dick in the crazy, as you put it. > > (2) Wait them out and make them explicitly request every level of intimacy > > (3) Play their stupid fucking game > > Each has it’s pluses and minuses. (1) is the simplest solution, but you are writing off X% of the population, and typically these women aren’t crazy in other ways. Plus, it’s not like these people have external markings. It’s easy to say just write them off, but it’s harder to do when your 4 dates in and you kind of like them. > > (2) is annoying and inefficient to my engineer brain. > > (3) Gets everyone what they want at the risk of the guy making an ass of himself or worse. > > I’ve done each of these at different points in my life and I can’t say any is better than the other. It just comes down to what you are looking for, how much effort you want to put in, and what risk you want to take. NO. (3) Gets you what you want, but might mean that you raped someone, because you misread the signals. You interpreted the no as a yes. You got what you wanted. She got what she didn’t want. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/154 "2013-04-14T00:51:44Z")
You’re gross, treis. All you’re telling us is that you target women who are either passive or timid and you consider steamrolling them to be a great success. If you have any daughters, please let anyone other than yourself prepare them for men like yourself. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/155 "2013-04-14T00:54:22Z")
Please, this isn’t an after school special where one drink makes you an alcoholic, drug use invariably leads, and everyone’s getting date raped. I’m one hundred percent positive that I’ve never raped anyone. And frankly, the way you casually accuse me of being a rapist is a bit appalling. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/156 "2013-04-14T00:55:28Z")
> [@treis](#): > > (2) is annoying and inefficient to my engineer brain. **Tough. Shit.** ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/157 "2013-04-14T00:56:46Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > The thing is, if men AND WOMEN are exposed to this sort of thing constantly, then it’s hard for women to say no and have it taken at face value. Both men and women will expect that a woman is supposed to say no the first time she’s asked, even if she’s horny as hell and is ready to rip his clothes off and have her way with him. Because if she says yes the first time she’s asked, she’s a slut. And if she says no too many times, she’s a frigid bitch. Either way, she’s shamed. > > I remember a Reader’s Digest ad, saying something like “Don’t say no, say maybe” in regards to subscribing or renewing. The ad went on to say that in France, if a woman says no, she means maybe, and if she says maybe, then she means yes. Of course, this was back in the 60s or so. Still, the idea was that what a woman said was not what she meant. It saddens me to see that women’s sincerity when deciding these things are not taken seriously. Media is to blame, but like you said, they dont have much of a choice either. If the guy was to give up after being told “no”, it wouldn’t be much of a show. So it can be said that the media is also a factor in misleading men to think that women aren’t sincere when the say “no”. However, I don’t know if there is a solution for this, other than maybe starting to require dating classes or some class along those lines when students reach a certain age like we do with sex education. The problem is that it isn’t feasible that the media will stop producing such works. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/158 "2013-04-14T00:57:47Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Please, this isn’t an after school special where one drink makes you an alcoholic, drug use invariably leads, and everyone’s getting date raped. I’m one hundred percent positive that I’ve never raped anyone. And frankly, the way you casually accuse me of being a rapist is a bit appalling. Buddy, nothing’s more appalling than the shitstack of " the word no is meaningless because signals!!1!" you guys keep horking up here. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/159 "2013-04-14T00:57:57Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > You’re gross, treis. All you’re telling us is that you target women who are either passive or timid and you consider steamrolling them to be a great success. If you have any daughters, please let anyone other than yourself prepare them for men like yourself. No, you’re just projecting your baggage on me. Seriously, you don’t know me or any of the women I dated. Insulting them because you don’t like what I’m saying is uncalled for. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556/160 "2013-04-14T01:01:14Z")
> [@treis](#): > > No, you’re just projecting your baggage on me. Seriously, you don’t know me or any of the women I dated. Insulting them because you don’t like what I’m saying is uncalled for. _Now_ you’re their white knight? Where were you when some pushy bastard was ignoring their request to stop? Oh, yeah. On top of them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/treis-no-means-no/655556.md?page=9)