# Trench art and measuring artillery shells **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 20, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trench-art-and-measuring-artillery-shells/713161 "2015-02-20T03:30:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trench-art-and-measuring-artillery-shells/713161/1 "2015-02-20T03:30:22Z")
A colleague has a piece of trench art: about six inches of an empty artillery cartridge, with the base, that had been intricately carved. The seller said it was a World War I specimen. But she measured the diameter of the cartridge, and it is 88 mm. Does this mean it was likely a shell for a WW II German 8.8? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trench-art-and-measuring-artillery-shells/713161/2 "2015-02-20T03:57:39Z")
The Germans had 88mm shells in WWI, so you can’t say when it was made just based on the size alone. ETA: Note that trench art wasn’t always made in the trenches. Sometimes it came from POW camps (another place where men often had a lot of free time on their hands and limited materials to work with), and after the war a lot of trench art was mass produced using military surplus once folks found out that there was a demand for it. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trench-art-and-measuring-artillery-shells/713161/3 "2015-02-20T04:37:22Z")
Thanks! Did anyone else use an 88 mm shell? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trench-art-and-measuring-artillery-shells/713161/4 "2015-02-20T15:51:15Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > The Germans had 88mm shells in WWI, so you can’t say when it was made just based on the size alone. They did? Everything I can find are either 7.7 cm or 10.5 cm guns. The 88 is, AFAIK, a WWII anti-aircraft/antitank gun. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trench-art-and-measuring-artillery-shells/713161/5 "2015-02-20T16:04:51Z")
> [@bump](#): > > They did? Everything I can find are either 7.7 cm or 10.5 cm guns. The 88 is, AFAIK, a WWII anti-aircraft/antitank gun. World War I German 88 mm anti-aircraft cannon. Photo taken in August, 1918. > **[File:88 Flak 16 3397921.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:88_Flak_16_3397921.jpg)** > > Original file (1,000 × 792 pixels, file size: 150 KB, MIME type: image/jpeg) > Library and Archives Canada > English ∙ français ∙ македонски ∙ 日本語 ∙ +/− > it was not subject to Crown copyright, and ETA: This gun was modified in the 30’s and evolved into the well-known “acht acht” from WWII. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trench-art-and-measuring-artillery-shells/713161/6 "2015-02-20T16:52:06Z")
While poking around the net to see if anyone else had 88mm shells, I discovered that the 88’s in WWI were nicknamed “whiz-bangs”. > [@](#): > > In time, the troops distinguished the different types of enemy shells. The worst were the"whiz-bangs" --88mm shells, precursors to the feared 88s of World War II. “You couldn’t hear the shells until they lit,” explained artillery lieutenant Bob Casey, “but you know well enough when they arrived. Afterwards you could hear them coming at you for a good thirty seconds. It as the most uncanny crab-walk of sound any of us had ever heard, all of it due to the fact that the whiz-bang–the Austrian 88–is faster than sound.” from: To Conquer Hell: The Meuse-Argonne, 1918 The Epic Battle That Ended the First World War by Edward G. Lengel ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trench-art-and-measuring-artillery-shells/713161/7 "2015-02-20T19:31:16Z")
engineer\_comp\_geek is right “trench art” was rarely produced in a trench where other things took precedence. Most of it was produced well after WW1 as tourist pieces for people touring the battle fields. The fields etc were littered with shell cases and the locals made use of them. Or bored engineers making things to send home, though just how they “found” the raw and much needed materials is a question. Today wandering a local “antiques shop” i found a pair of shell cases that had been spun into baluster shaped vases and that took a lathe at the very least! ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trench-art-and-measuring-artillery-shells/713161/8 "2015-02-20T20:11:25Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > World War I German 88 mm anti-aircraft cannon. Photo taken in August, 1918. > [File:88 Flak 16 3397921.jpg - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:88_Flak_16_3397921.jpg) > > ETA: This gun was modified in the 30’s and evolved into the well-known “acht acht” from WWII. You definitely know much more about this than I do, but in IMHO, the uniforms in this picture don’t look German to me. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trench-art-and-measuring-artillery-shells/713161/9 "2015-02-20T20:16:02Z")
OTOH, the soldiers in this picture appear as if they inspecting a foreign (enemy?) weapon. So they aren’t German soldiers after all. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trench-art-and-measuring-artillery-shells/713161/10 "2015-02-20T20:26:28Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > You definitely know much more about this than I do, but in IMHO, the uniforms in this picture don’t look German to me. 😕 The Wikipedia info says that it’s a photo of a captured German gun, so I wouldn’t expect the uniforms around it at that point to be German. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trench-art-and-measuring-artillery-shells/713161/11 "2015-02-20T20:57:25Z")
Here’s the description for the photograph: _World War I German 88 mm anti-aircraft cannon. Photo taken in August, 1918_ I’m also pretty sure that these are Russian/Soviet uniforms (but IMHO, from a later era). However, by that time (summer of 1918), a truce between Russia and Germany had long been signed, there was no fighting. And also, according to Wikipedia, prototype 88s were first produced in 1928. I’d say the caption for the picture is wrong, but again, I’m no expert. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trench-art-and-measuring-artillery-shells/713161/12 "2015-02-20T21:05:51Z")
Well, here we go: [http://collectionscanada.gc.ca/pam\_archives/index.php?fuseaction=genitem.displayEcopies&lang=eng&rec\_nbr=3397921&title=Guns+captured+by+Canadians+on+their+way+to+Gun+Park.+Battle+of+Amiens++&ecopy=a003050-v8](http://collectionscanada.gc.ca/pam_archives/index.php?fuseaction=genitem.displayEcopies&lang=eng&rec_nbr=3397921&title=Guns+captured+by+Canadians+on+their+way+to+Gun+Park.+Battle+of+Amiens++&ecopy=a003050-v8) _Guns captured by Canadians on their way to Gun Park. Battle of Amiens_ (I have never seen these Canadian uniforms before). ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trench-art-and-measuring-artillery-shells/713161/13 "2015-02-20T21:28:20Z")
Thanks everyone for all the thoughts and info.