# Trial by champion combat, a real thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 6, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trial-by-champion-combat-a-real-thing/633888 "2012-09-06T19:03:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trial-by-champion-combat-a-real-thing/633888/1 "2012-09-06T19:03:04Z")
I can vaguely imagine how a society could think might=right so trial by combat could seem fair, if you win you go free. I can’t imagine how anyone could think trial by hired or otherwise champions fight makes any kind of sense, it doesn’t because neigther combatant has a connection to the defendant. Did this really happen in reality or is it just a invention of fantasy fiction? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trial-by-champion-combat-a-real-thing/633888/2 "2012-09-06T19:07:54Z")
I believe that the concept is, like some other tests of the same period which seem irrational, that God will intervene on the side of the right. The test merely presents the opportunity for God to do this clearly. So, rationality as we understand it in the modern sense is not the idea here, and doesn’t apply. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trial-by-champion-combat-a-real-thing/633888/3 "2012-09-06T20:24:09Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Did this really happen in reality or is it just a invention of fantasy fiction? According to the accounts of Bishop Swinefeld for the year 1289, he paid a man named Thomas of Bridges 6s. 8d. per year to be his champion. > **[Trial by Combat](https://books.google.ca/books?l=&id=HkQuAAAAYAAJ&q=brydges&hl=en)** ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trial-by-champion-combat-a-real-thing/633888/4 "2012-09-06T20:26:37Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > According to the accounts of Bishop Swinefeld for the year 1289, he paid a man named Thomas of Bridges 6s. 8d. per year to be his champion. > > [Trial by Combat - George Neilson - Google Books](http://books.google.ca/books?l=&id=HkQuAAAAYAAJ&q=brydges#v=snippet&q=brydges&f=false) The following chapter recounts Thomas of Bridges achievements. I think the list is titled ‘Those are the Losers’. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trial-by-champion-combat-a-real-thing/633888/5 "2012-09-06T20:39:30Z")
But at least with trial by combat, the situation is: two people disagree, they fight, and only one is left, and so after the “trial” the disagreement is over. If you allow people to hire champions, the two disagreeing parties are both still alive to disagree and continue the feud. ---
**Author:** ![wheresmymind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@wheresmymind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheresmymind)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trial-by-champion-combat-a-real-thing/633888/6 "2012-09-06T20:49:37Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But at least with trial by combat, the situation is: two people disagree, they fight, and only one is left, and so after the “trial” the disagreement is over. If you allow people to hire champions, the two disagreeing parties are both still alive to disagree and continue the feud. I don’t think it was necessarily a fight to the death, i.e. one party could “tap out” when he realized he’d been beat, and the winner could also show mercy if so moved. Similar to duels more recently; there were many opportunities to back down, people would purposefully miss, etc so that most duels didn’t end in death. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trial-by-champion-combat-a-real-thing/633888/7 "2012-09-06T22:49:50Z")
It may be a fictional theme from the fantasy genre, but that story line has been around a long time. See: David v. Goliath. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trial-by-champion-combat-a-real-thing/633888/8 "2012-09-06T23:01:24Z")
Absolutely it happened. In England, trial by combat was only officially abolished in 1819, and indeed in 1817 the courts upheld the ancient right to trial by battle, as it was called then, as an ancient right that hadn’t been officially removed. > [@Wiki](#): > > Ashford v Thornton [(1818) 106 ER 149] is an English law case in the Court of King’s Bench that upheld the right of the defendant, on a private appeal from an acquittal for murder, to trial by battle. In 1817, Abraham Thornton was charged with the murder of Mary Ashford. Thornton had met Ashford at a dance, and had walked with her from the event. The next morning, Ashford was found drowned in a pit, with little outward signs of violence. Although public opinion was heavily against Thornton, the jury quickly acquitted him, and also found him not guilty of rape. > > Mary’s brother, William Ashford, launched an appeal, and Thornton was rearrested. Thornton claimed the right to trial by battle, a medieval usage that had never been repealed by Parliament. Ashford argued that the evidence against Thornton was overwhelming, and that he was thus ineligible to wage battle. > > The court decided that the evidence against Thornton was not overwhelming, and that trial by battle was a permissible option under law; thus Thornton was granted trial by battle. Ashford declined the offer of battle and Thornton was freed from custody. Appeals such as Ashford’s were abolished by statute the following year, and with them the right to trial by battle. Thornton emigrated to the United States, where he died around 1860. > [@Wiki](#): > > When Thornton was called upon for his plea, he responded, “Not guilty; and I am ready to defend the same with my body.” He then put on one of a pair of leather gauntlets, which Reader handed him. Thornton threw down the other for William Ashford to pick up and thus accept the challenge, which Ashford did not do. Instead, his counsel, Nathaniel Clarke, argued that Thornton should not be able to compound his murder of the sister with an attempt to murder the brother, to which the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Ellenborough responded, “It is the law of England, Mr. Clarke; we must not call it murder.” More information on this fascinating case: [Ashford v Thornton - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashford_v_Thornton) ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trial-by-champion-combat-a-real-thing/633888/9 "2012-09-06T23:07:09Z")
Oh, and a final case from 2002: [Court refuses trial by combat](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1416262/Court-refuses-trial-by-combat.html) For American Readers, think of the DVLA as much like your own driver licensing agencies. Not quite as bad but still certainly not held in high esteem in these isles. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trial-by-champion-combat-a-real-thing/633888/10 "2012-09-06T23:27:58Z")
Ashford couldn’t use a champion though, being neither a minor, invalid or a women. So it’s not an abortive example of trial by battle via a champion. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trial-by-champion-combat-a-real-thing/633888/11 "2012-09-06T23:37:44Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > Ashford couldn’t use a champion though, being neither a minor, invalid or a women. So it’s not an abortive example of trial by battle via a champion. Ashford no but did you see the DVLA case? ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trial-by-champion-combat-a-real-thing/633888/12 "2012-09-07T00:04:01Z")
What sort of shape was Humphrey in? Could the DVLA as a branch of the Crown appoint an SAS trooper as ‘Queen’s Champion’? The betting shops would be all over it in a heart beat. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trial-by-champion-combat-a-real-thing/633888/13 "2012-09-07T00:39:39Z")
No idea but Humphrey was sixty years old! And since you mention the SAS, bear in mind that the DVLA is based in Swansea, only fifty miles away from knowing what colour the boat house is there… Then again I can guarantee the typical member of the SAS would take the opportunity to lose - presumably by not lifting a finger, and possibly accidentrally kill the man from the DVLA whose side he was supposed to be on - presumably by lifting his little finger, once. The DVLA are bastards you see, and I’m sure the SAS know it. Especially shite like SORN - it’s caused a lot of trouble amongst classic car enthusiasts here. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trial-by-champion-combat-a-real-thing/633888/14 "2012-09-07T00:57:24Z")
So he’d cry craven and let the old mechanic win? Nice. The bookies will be upset though (on second thoughts maybe not, the Queen’s champion would have to be the red hot favourite).