Trickle up economics---A new theory

Funny that you should bring this up, as RTFirefly and I just spent some time in the Reagan thread holding this claim up to the bright light of some hard cold data, facts, and logic. Turns out that it doesn’t fare too well. Care to have a look? http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=58820&pagenumber=2

Boy, this sure is convoluted logic. Since supply-side predictions for revenue didn’t hold up when they were made by the practicioners in the 1980s, now we invoke supply-side stimulus to explain what is happening here in the 1990s when those practicioners aren’t in charge and the economy is doing better than predicted. Sounds like a good idea to me! :expressionless: Besides which, it seems to be fairly commonly stated (although I must admit that I don’t know what the arguments for this statement are) that the economic boom of the 90s was largely demand-driven. Notice how panicky everyone is getting at signs that consumer demand is slackening!

As for arl, I think kimstu’s responses are better than anything I can muster. No offense, but I find it quite hard to take much of what you say about the poor, discriminated-against rich people very seriously…It reads more like self-parody. (To be honest, the “Billionaires for Bush or Gore” http://www.billionairesforbushorgore.com/ put out some actual parody on the subject that sounds less like parody to me than much of what you said!) And, as for the part about Congress having all the power: Even assuming the federal government is as powerful as you give it credit for, I think it is kind of silly to suggest that that power lies in the hands of the Congresspeople as individuals. It lies largely in the hands of those who fund their campaigns! (And, we do have the best government that money can buy!!!) And guess what…You can’t buy a Congressman on a poor person’s salary!

Classic! You must be a fellow Tom Tomorrow fan, Kimstu.

Yeah, arl gets a little worked up. But he has a point here.
First off, I really don’t like arguing these things as ideological points, because I look at these things from a strictly practical point of view. As of this time, given this economic situation, I think Bush has it exactly right with his tax plan.
That said, there obviously has to be some ideological justification for saying something like this, and here is where I will attempt to jump in on arl’s behalf.
Why would you ever cut taxes for the “rich”?
Because they’re not. Everything is relative. The U.S. is the richest country in the world, but there are parts of the U.S. that are richer than other parts. Manhattan is way richer than the Mississippi Delta, and Silicon Valley is way richer than Appalachia.
Which is as it should be. Silicon Valley produces goods that are far more valuable for the nation than Appalachia. Ditto for any comparison between Manhattan and the Mississippi Delta.
The former regions are economically dynamic, highly successful places that throw off massive amounts of capital to be redirected at whatever gets the highest return, which usually, though not always, turns out to be whatever is most valuable for the society at large. The latter regions have a hard time even producing enough to care for their own.
Most “rich” people live in or near NYC or the Silicon Valley or whatever other economically dynamic region of the U.S. you care to name. Why? Because their wealth is a direct result of the economies of these areas.
The real estate in these areas is priced to reflect the income-producing potential of these areas. This is true for both commercial and residential real estate.
This means that to live in an economically dynamic area, you have to be able to pay the cost. Unfortunately, given a progressive income tax, this means that a large slice of the income you make to allow yourself to live in such an area is taxed away, in part to support inert places like the Delta or Appalachia.
So, a progressive income tax will inevitably take economic energy away from the places that produce the wealth we all depend on. From time to time it will be called for to allow these places, and the people who live in them, the chance to keep more of that wealth, so as to produce more later.

Oh damn. First time that bolding thing ever happened to me. Crapola.

Kimstu, will you marry me?

<<<<Omigod, he really believes this stuff.>>>

Well, lags are important. You can divide them into 2 types: inside lags (of which implimentation is one) and outside lags. Inside lags are lags which come between the economic shock and the policy response. Outside lacks include those that come between the the policy change and the effect on the economy.

Fiscal policy has long inside lags -it takes a long time for Congress and the President to get their act together- but short outside lags: the economy receives stimulus the moment that the dollars enter the public’s pocket (or with a somewhat longer lag if it’s a tax rise or cut).

(For monetary policy it’s the reverse: the Fed can react quickly, but it takes a while for changes in interest rates to affect investment behavior.)

THE POINT: You say the tax increase actually took effect in 1918, not in 1917. Fine. Between 1918 and 1919 the economy grew. Between 1919 and 1920 the economy grew. Suddenly, two years after the increase happens, consumers decide to cut back on spending. Dubious.

Let’s look at some numbers:
…($1982)…Federal…Federal
Year…GDP…unemployment…Receipts…Spending
1919…475.7…1.4…5.1…18.5
1920…469.9…5.2…6.6…6.4
1921…459.0…11.7…5.6…5.1

Looking at the table, it seems to me that spending declines are the most significant. Sorry, but I couldn’t find any data for the pre-1919 period.

Right, and world war II had some of the sharpest increases in taxes in the history of the US. I rest my case.

Please note: I’m not saying that tax increases don’t tend to slow down the economy over the short run: I believe they do, by supressing consumption. I am saying that you’re drawing a line between any tax increase that you see and any downturn that you see. You could just as easily say that the 1917 tax increase caused the Great Depression; I could say that it caused the roaring 1920s.

Great Depression: Remember, economic recovery began in 1933; if tax increases has an overwhelmingly negative effect, the economy would have kept contracting.

Some GDP ($1982) numbers
Peak year: 1929: 684.2
Trough year: 1933: 475.5 (ouch!)
1937…682.8
1938…648.2
1939…703.7

(Quibble: Note that pre-depression income was regained by 1939, before WWII started.)

Well, I find this talk very distressing. I find it even more distressing because I, as a relatively poor person, am arguing with jshore, a relatively rich person.

I always get out of hand in these debates. I can’t help it. I get so damn frustrated. How many different ways can you say, “If you want to help the poor then you can help them all you want. I am not here for you to dictate at a whim, nor is my effort yours to dispose of, nor is my mind yours to control.”

Face it: “we” as an economically impoverished group demand too much stuff. We basically want goods and services we can’t pay for. So we demand that the wealthy pick up the rest. And they do it, don’t they?

As far as relative wealth goes, I hear that. But there is clearly some consensus that a person can have too much stuff. They have to give it up to the rest of us. I disagree with this completely and in every way possible.

In a free(er) economy we would have much less of a welfare system because the government would spend less time pampering its citizens. Nothing stops anyone from forming a social group to aide any other group. Churches, soup kitches, etc etc. March of Dimes. Whatever. But damnit, quit making people give their money up! If they wanted you to have it they’d give it to you, the end.

I’m sorry, if people feel I should leave this thread then so be it. I am not always a practical person. I am not like this in all threads, but damnit…

Ah, whatever.

arl: *How many different ways can you say, “If you want to help the poor then you can help them all you want. I am not here for you to dictate at a whim, nor is my effort yours to dispose of, nor is my mind yours to control.” *

I don’t know how many ways there are to say that, but rest assured that we’ve heard them all from the libertarians who came before you. And none of them have successfully dealt with the objection that you are not merely an isolated individual whose position and achievements are independent of society and who therefore has the right to be left alone by society. Our society is not only a protector of individual freedoms but also a cooperative enterprise with an implicit social contract, in which mutual responsibilities are universal but not identical for every individual, nor are they selected solely at the individual’s discretion. Although all of us disagree about various aspects and extents of those responsibilities and constantly tinker with the way we define and implement them, the vast majority of us don’t have any problem with accepting the basic premise of that implicit contract as a necessary part of a free and just society. And I don’t think your raving about “dictatorship” and “mind control” will really change anybody’s mind about that.

But there is clearly some consensus that a person can have too much stuff. They have to give it up to the rest of us.

I don’t understand this complaint at all. This would seem to imply that you think there’s a “consensus” in favor of imposing a truly confiscatory tax rate—i.e., 100%—on all the income chunks above a certain maximum permitted income level. That is, there ought to be a certain maximum amount of “stuff” beyond which you have to “give up” everything you get. Who here is even suggesting this, much less defending a “consensus” in favor of keeping people from having “too much stuff”? As our tax system stands, you keep at least some part (in fact, the greater part) of all your income, no matter how stratospheric the level of your highest income chunk is. There is no “too much stuff” limit, and nobody AFAIK is seriously suggesting that there should be one.

But damnit, quit making people give their money up!

Once again: “their money” is a fundamentally naive expression (although it’s a perfectly valid first-order approximation to the truth when we’re talking about immediate legal questions of possession, theft, etc.). All people get and keep “their money” partly thanks to the efforts of the rest of society. It is oversimplistic (to the point of irrelevance) to answer the question of “how shall the members of our society support that society’s needs?” by responding “it’s their money, if they wanted you to have it they’d give it to you, the end.”

I’m sorry, if people feel I should leave this thread then so be it. I am not always a practical person.

Now now, nobody’s trying to throw you out, but you must realize that this is indeed a very practical thread, in which most participants regard hyper-libertarian definitions of “freedom” (including the idea that unequal taxation automatically equals oppression) as biased, ill-thought-out, and silly. It’s nothing personal, but given the nature and strength of your convictions, you’d better be prepared to have your feelings hurt.

Ace Face: Yup, Tom Tomorrow rules. :slight_smile:

matt_mcl: Sure thing, sweetie, but aren’t you in enough trouble already? It’s not enough for you to be a gay pagan leftist politician, you want to be a gay pagan leftist politician who’s married to his aunt (albeit an honorary and virtual aunt)?! We’ll have to live in Canada because Dubya will never let you cross the border! :wink:

My feelings aren’t hurt, really. I just get disappointed with these threads.

If it is a question of efficiency and practicality then we would dispense with much of the freedoms we enjoy as a nation already. Communistic theory, I find, is terribly efficient with respect to resources, and is the best idea to come along ever, IMO. Except for one thing.

It requires people to think a certain way towards other people.

Indeed, you might notice that the more regimented, restricted, and regulated a society is the more complicated the “social contract” becomes. Social contracts are unescapable, I almost entirely agree there, but it is a matter of what this contract implies.

The more free the country, the smaller the social contract, and the more individualized the social contract may become. If there are really that many people who wish to do some good and support others, why do we need to use taxation to do it? Why do we need to steal it? Why is there such a debate over it? The issue is very divided, that’s why, and there isn’t enough support for either position.

Trickle-up economics considers a stagnant money supply. The amount of money returned to the economy is spread out, unconcentrated. Trickle-down assumes an increasing money supply through the creation of wealth. Living in one of the wealthiest nations on earth I can see by inspection that trickle-down economics seems to do what is intended: raise the standard of living. Standard of living does not necessarily mean more money, adjusted or not. It means a whole lot of things, like technology available, work options, leisure options, etc etc. These things require large and concentrated investments. The people who are in a position to make large and concentrated investments are…the wealthy.

So again, I ask: what do we want? Do we want everyone to be provided for? Do we want people to not face choices that involve life and death, poverty or wealth? We can do these things right now. It seems we lack the strength of our convictions. It seems, in fact, “Oh, we don’t want to eliminate the wealthy, we just want them to share. They can keep most of it.” Because we want to be wealthy too. This is BS. You lack the courage of your convictions.

(simplification follows)
Socialism is practical. Communism is practical. And they require that man behave a certain way, that man have a certain outlook on property, life, society.

Capitalism requires nothing of you. It requires nothing of us. We can do whatever we want. We can get together as a group, buy a commune, and all support each other in peace and harmony. Or, we can buy a business and have 100% profit sharing, each person getting the same thing as everyone else. We can do these things in capitalism.

The commune is out in a mixed economy because, after a certain size, the taxes become very large and we must again resort to external means or declare ourselves some religion to avoid property taxes. The 100%profit sharing business dies in our economy because of pressures faced in growth. Without significant profit there are no funds for growth and innovation, unless people then in turn all give an equal portion of their pay to the company.

I’m not sure where to start with this. What is “too much”? Do you think the wealthiest country on earth can’t afford better health care for the poor? Even when almost all other industrialized countries do so without question?

Earlier you indicated your profound concern for issues of equality. :rolleyes: So I ask you the following question:
Take two kids. One is born to incredibly wealthy parents (let’s call him Steve Forbes), the other is born to lower class, working parents who are barely keeping their heads above water. What is the probability that Steve will grow up to be weatlthy, versus the poor kid. Of course you have to admit that it is more likely gravy train Steve will grow up to be more weatlhy – he already is wealthy! Through no particular ability or aptitude of his own. Where is the equality in this?

Now I don’t have any big problem with inheritance per se, and our reasonable (too generous, really) inheritance and income tax rates ensure that – unless he is a complete idiot with his money – Stevie will be wealthy in perpetuity, and that his children’s children probably will be as well.

My point is, a society that allows the Steve Forbes’s of the world to thrive does indeed have an obligation to those of not so fortunate birth – at least if we are to make any pretense of egalitarianism. Moreover, I think it makes economic sense to have a well-educated, healthy and secure population.

Finally, rather than demanding too much, I think the lower classes in the U.S. demand far too little, given that much of our recent success has come from the productivity gains squeezed out of them.

So using your own “taking things to extremes” logic, if a handful of people owned, say, all the private land in the U.S., this would be a good thing? Remember, most resources are finite. Third world, anyone?

You know, I can point to several countries in the real world which I’d like to see the U.S. emulate in terms of social policy. Most of northern Europe, for example. Where, pray tell, is the great Libertarian state? Or are you going to tell me, like a typical Marxist refering to communism, “Oh, of course ‘real’ Libertarianism has never been tried.” Maybe there’s a good reason for that? Could it be that absolute economic freedom inherently conflicts with other, more important, freedoms? Seems obvious to me.

I’ll say this, arl. After reading several of your posts, you’re helping me to better understand a mindset that is disturbingly common nowadays. Not agree with mind you (if anything your pushing me further in the opposite direction), but understand.

Kimstu: I see. Well, then will you be my valentine?

Communism is NOT practical-it is about as practical in real life as libertarianism.

See, another thing, arl, TECHNICALLY, money does not belong to you per se-isn’t it currency Federal Property, if you want to get really technical about it?

I am ashamed to say I have completely hijacked this thread. Only about three of my paragraphs have addressed the OP.

Sorry, jshore.

To stay on track, perhaps someone could correct me in thinking that if we give more people less money rather than less people more money that we actually, investment-wise, come to the same point in less steps. This will convince me completely, regardless of principles or what-have-you.

It seems to me that distributing money this way to stimulate the economy is, at best, planting seeds by throwing them up in the air and letting the wind guide it. Which is, you’ll pardon me saying, the opposite of our goal if we want to control the economy for more efficient growth.

Or do I not understand the goal correctly?

I’m sorry, I assumed that since people’s property is ours to do with as we please, and since it takes personal effort to get that property then people themselves are ours to do with as we please, that communism is then the most practical form of government to impliment this idea.

Plus there’s the added benefit of everyone being taken care of, health, food and shelter, education. Isn’t that what we want? Isn’t that our goal?

I am being completely serious now, not condescending. What the hell are we trying to accomplish in this thread but a more efficient way of distributing what has been declared as the public’s resources?

Oh for the love of gravy!

You know damn well what I mean in that communism is not practical. NO form of extremism is practical. Checks and balances, moderation, etc etc?
sigh

You strongly support that statement? :wink:

I don’t find political views which clearly state where they stand on issues to be extreme, I find them to be honest. All political views are pretty extreme if they say anything at all. What bothers me is that that statement promotes not any particular political theory, but none at all. I have no idea where this political view stands on anything, apart from the fact that if there is an extreme circumstance that I can expect a whole lot of flip-flopping to go on and no actual point to be reached.

arl:

Now I am weirded out. My take is that the USSR succeeded in dividing the pie fairly evenly, at least relative to other market-based systems.

But they were rather mediocre in generating income/wealth. Although they had a highly educated labor force, their incentive structure ensured that they had low or negative economic growth.

CAVEATS:

  1. Stalin did succeed in boosting the savings rate of the economy, thereby achieving high levels of fairly inefficient investment. Thus, the USSR built a fairly decent physical infrastructure. Still, it is difficult to establish a consumer goods industry, which involves many varied products, in a command/control economy.

  2. Countries that did not invest in education, for whatever reason, tended to do worse than the USSR.

  3. Countries experiencing war on their soil also tend to do poorly economically. (Colombia, which has had low-level warfare for the past 30 or so years, is a possible exception.)

[hijack]
Furthermore
One can separate out civil liberties from economic liberties. Sweden is an example of a country with high taxes, but good human rights. Chile under Pinochet was an example of the opposite.

AND: I’d argue that economic freedom, as defined by a libertarian, does not typically imply economic opportunity, to the extent that publically-provided education advances the latter at the expense of higher taxes.
[/hijack]

arl: To stay on track, perhaps someone could correct me [I presume that what you mean here is “convince”, as the proposition you describe seems to be diametrically opposed to what you seemed to be supporting in earlier posts] in thinking that if we give more people less money rather than less people more money that we actually, investment-wise, come to the same point in less steps.

Why, jshore gave many of the arguments for this in his very first post in this thread and in several subsequent ones. To summarize (and I hope jshore will correct me if I misstate his views): Start from the premise that the “point” we want to get to is increased prosperity and economic opportunity for society as a whole. Accept the hypothesis that the instrument we’re going to use to try to achieve this is a tax cut eliminating X billion dollars from the revenue stream. The question: how do we distribute this tax cut so that it most effectively influences the workings of the economy towards this goal?

Classic “trickle-down” or “supply-side” theory (which is what you seem to be arguing for) says that you should direct most of the X billion of lost revenue to the comparatively few people who pay large amounts of tax (this is the effect that an “across-the-board” tax reduction will have). These people, most of whom already have plenty of money, don’t need the extra revenue for their personal needs so they will use it as an investment tool to make more money by creating new businesses and jobs and so forth, thereby stimulating the economy and making everybody better off. Ta-da.

And it sounds great. But what jshore and others have pointed out is that “trickle-down” requires a pre-existing healthy demand side of the economy in order to have the desired effect. If most of the non-wealthy are struggling financially, they are not going to be able to provide the consumer demand that gives supply-side investors an acceptable return on their investment. (Plus they are apt to have a host of related problems—higher crime, lower education, etc.—that makes them less attractive as participants in these new enterprises too.) So the investors, being no dummies, will move the bulk of their new wealth to places where it can produce a profitable return, and that vanished revenue ends up stimulating the US economy absolutely not at all. Bzzzzt: failed plan!

Of course, the wealthy investors will still pump up our economy somewhat by increasing their consumption (assuming they don’t trend overwhelmingly towards foreign luxury consumables that also provide little or no benefit to our economy), but not enough to justify the public investment in a major revenue-losing tax cut for them. (There are also disadvantages associated with the fact that boosting supply-side investment can ultimately be expensive for the public in terms of requiring more regulation and oversight. That is, when wealthy people suddenly have a whole lot more money to put into profit-making ventures, many of them will be smart enough to notice that there’s a sh*tload of money to be made in enterprises that degrade the environment or exploit the consumer—and some of them, alas, will not be conscientious enough to resist such temptations.)

“Trickle-up”, on the other hand, relies on the fact that the non-wealthy tend to be more constrained by necessity in how they use their money. It says that you should direct the tax cut primarily to the large numbers of people who pay comparatively little tax (which includes most of the middle class). They will spend it predominantly locally on consumables (thus getting more money back into the pockets of the supply-side producers of the consumables) and such “social capital investments” as health care and education (thus improving the future prospects for a qualified and productive workforce).

And because there are simply so many more of the non-wealthy than the wealthy, their increased consumption will provide a much bigger economic boost than increased consumption by the wealthy, as well as being more reliable than the unfettered, globalized, completely discretionary investment decisions of the wealthy. (I have wondered, actually, whether this prospect is affected significantly by the size of the trade deficit: that is, if non-wealthy Americans use their tax-cut money primarily to buy foreign-made goods, is it still a boost for our economy? Presumably the fact that it still feeds money into domestic marketing and distribution networks is a plus, but I’d be pleased to hear some “trickle-upper” go into the question in more detail.)

Okay then: should we trickle up or down? It seems clear to me that that choice depends on how the supply and demand sides of the economy are doing at the time you ask the question. In a society where poverty is low, education levels and general quality of life are high, unemployment is persistently high, and investment capital is in relatively short supply, it makes a lot of sense to me that you would prefer to stimulate the economy by trying to inject more money into the supply side. Get some of that juice flowing and try to tempt investors into shooting for the big bux. This seems to be one of the approaches that some European countries are now taking (some very cautiously, some (like the UK) less so) to their problems of sluggish economies and high unemployment.

For us in the US, on the other hand, it looks pretty obvious that the demand side is currently much more at risk than the supply side. Upward redistribution of wealth has been occurring at a tremendous pace over the past couple of decades, while incomes, benefits, and social capital for the poor and working-class have improved hardly at all in real terms over the same period. Consumer debt is really big, average household savings are tiny, homelessness is rising again, infrastructure’s deteriorating—eek! The supply side these days is absolutely stinky with money to invest (much of which is going overseas), while the economic and political power of the demand side continues to erode. Supply-side prosperity obviously won’t always guarantee the health of the demand side, so we’d better apply some economic stimulus to the demand side directly before it loses its ability to support the supply-side investments that we want to encourage.

So you see, arl, the idea isn’t necessarily to get to “the same point in [fewer] steps”, it’s to get to the same point in more effective steps. There’s simply no point in giving American investors more money to invest if they won’t find America an attractive place to invest it, or if they can do lots better elsewhere (as in Mexico or the Philippines). The argument behind “trickle-up” is that we’ll get better results for the economy as a whole out of the same X billion dollars by giving it to those who are likely to use it in a more directly stimulating way. There, how’s that? Are you convinced yet? :slight_smile:

It seems to me that distributing money this way to stimulate the economy is, at best, planting seeds by throwing them up in the air and letting the wind guide it.

How you figure? It’s certainly no more random in its effects than giving the money to the supply-side investors: in fact, as I’ve been pointing out, giving money to investors is less reliable, since they are more likely just to take their “seeds” somewhere else where you get no use out of the crop.

Which is, you’ll pardon me saying, the opposite of our goal if we want to control the economy for more efficient growth. Or do I not understand the goal correctly?

Yes, I think you’ve misunderstood the goal somewhat. We’re not really talking about “controlling” the economy: flowbark gave an excellent explanation of why such command/control economies as the Soviet one don’t do a very good job of promoting economic growth. We want to influence the economy by providing incentives that take advantage of the ways markets naturally work (e.g., when people get extra money they tend to use it, wealthy people tend to invest it, non-wealthy people tend to spend it) to encourage the desired outcomes.

And the whole point of doing this via a tax cut is to take advantage of people’s willingness to use their individual preferences and judgements in following these incentives, rather than requiring expensive micromanaging controls on the details of the expenditures. (Imagine if every citizen who got a tax cut demanded to be reimbursed for his/her efforts in deciding how to use the money, because it acts as a helpful stimulus to the economy—or demanded that an OMB official direct his/her expenditures to save him/her the burden of making the decision! :slight_smile: We’d swallow up whatever economic growth we produced in short order. See, even we hated liberals do recognize the practical advantages of freedom :wink: —we don’t argue that everything should be controlled by the bureaucracy! We just recognize as well the practical advantages of checks and balances on freedom, which include government provision of particular economic incentives.)

Well, normally it doesn’t take simple words and crayons to get me to see a point, but in my flurry of getting angry I missed that and misunderstood the point.

IF the supply side is ok then I would agree, disregarding principles, that we would want to stimulate the less-wealthy sector. In every econ-style thread my major complaint is that the less wealthy sector will just spend the money. I would like to note, however, that the impression I got from jshore was that we would be achieving the same thing whether we trickle up or trickle down. I still disagree with that. In light of your post, however, it does make economic sense.

I don’t know that our demand side is that bad. Unemployment is staggaringly low. I had no idea about the homelessness increasing. Damn FOX news team.

HOWEVER–and there always is with me, isn’t there?-- I still find the idea of an economic-class-based tax cut to be unpalatable. If we are going to slash taxes, cut everyone’s. In the worst of all things–a compromise–I would suggest that we could change taxes by degree (based on tax brackets). At the high end we still find much incentive, even though the taxes are outrageous. At the low end there is little incentive to get more wealthy. Indeed, there is a point where quality of life actually decreases because you lose goods and such from social services (due to a higher income) and yet the income gained doesn’t compensate for it. Having a family member on welfare–though I hate to even think about it–I can assure you this is true. Why, I make what many would consider to be a “decent” living. I can support myself tolerably well in an expensive area of the country. But I can tell you, she eats 100 times better than I do. In this regard I am always, always leary of giving yet more aide to the lower economic class. I feel they get too much already.

Having come from a poor family (though we’ve all done better now except for the afore mentioned welfare broad), I know it is possible to dig one’s self out of poverty using no public assistance (which we did). I don’t think anyone will ever convince me that we need more social programs. In any way. We believe a person who has lived through a war when they say “War is hell.” Believe me: I’ve lived through poverty. The government is not necessary.
(umpteenth parenthetical note: homelessness is another matter entirely, of course, and not a part of this discussion as the homeless get no taxes back anyway).

Thanks to kimstu for doing a lot of great work here while I have been otherwise busy or over in the Reagan thread trying to disbunk some revisionist economic history.

By the way, I was talking to some folks at work at lunch yesterday about these arguments and one thing they pointed out is that with all the wealth concentrated at the top, there is no shortage of supply side stimulus already available. As one of them so succiently put it, “If you walk down Wall Street and trip, someone will throw a million bucks in front of you before you hit the ground.”

Well, even if we go with your idea of cutting taxes proportionate to what people are paying in now (and we have pointed out several reasons why we favor giving the bulk of the tax cut to those who need it most), the fact is that the Bush tax cut apparently fails even on your terms. Here is a quote from an editorial in the Sacramento Bee (http://www.sacbee.com/voices/news/voices05_20010214.html), and I have heard essentially the same numbers quoted on the radio yesterday:

Another fun fact, by the way:

That why things like the earned income tax credit and lowering income tax rates at the low end are important! They increase the amount of benefit that you can get by working.

You better be careful here. I seriously doubt that, just because your family wasn’t on welfare or such, the government was not at all necessary for the betterment of your lives. And that a progressive tax code wasn’t helpful too!

People think they don’t benefit from the government. We have a sitting Vice President who had the nerve to claim in the debate this fall, when it was discussed that he is much better off than he was 8 years ago as a result of his being head of that oil industry company, “the government had nothing to do with it” when the evidence is that the government had everything to do with it. In fact, there is speculation that he got the job because he had connections to the government that they thought might come in handy…and come in handy they did, as the company got lots of government contracts! (This isn’t even to begin to point out the more indirect benefits!)