# Tricky and sad question: which family to choose? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 15, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064 "2010-02-15T14:02:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/41 "2010-02-16T15:54:54Z")
Yeah, based on your latest post, it sounds like your wife has been putting up with years of shitty behavior from your mom, while you did nothing. Count me for your wife’s side. ---
**Author:** ![Orville\_mogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/aeb1de/32.png) [@Orville\_mogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orville_mogul)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/42 "2010-02-16T15:54:57Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > You let somebody speak to your wife like that _for over a decade_ and never told the old biddy to go fuck herself? OK, I deserve some chastisement here. But I did tell her off, twice! ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/43 "2010-02-16T15:56:16Z")
Yep. You are not responsible for how your mother chooses (and I do me CHOOSES) to react. Your request is very reasonable. It is simply not ok for her to be disrespectful to your wife. Period. I’ve had to write a similar kind of letter (in the sense of setting boundaries). All the way through, there was a clear message: I feel hurt and angry when you do these things. If you do this \ I will leave the room. If you escalate to this \ I will leave your house. If you do level three I will fly back home early. I think you did the right thing with the email. I don’t think you have to start with the thermo-nuclear option of taking the baby away, but she needs to know if that is realistically a consequence to her behavior (if you don’t really want to do that, don’t threaten it. Only state consequences you are willing to do). My previous recommendation still stands for your wife. You have and will defend her and your marriage. And she will demonstrate respect for you and your marriage by not antagonizing her MIL, no matter how much she wants to. She can bitch with you, but she’s will not participate in behavior that results in your suffering. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/44 "2010-02-16T16:14:28Z")
Two things: > [@Endemic](#): > > Being the pacifist I am, I tried to live with the barbs, but each of them wounded my wife, and they had a cumulative effect. So whereas I was willing to look the other way as long as possible, my wife was not. So this translated to long and difficult fights with my wife after each interaction with my mom. It’s really easy to ignore barbs that aren’t directed at you. Not so much when they’re aimed directly at your head. I’m sad to say, YOU are the one that’s in the wrong here for not defending your wife, loudly, clearly, forcefully, _EVERY TIME YOUR MOM MADE A COMMENT_. If my husband wasn’t willing to stand up for me with his parents…well, he wouldn’t be my husband. > [@](#): > > But my wife wasn’t and basically insisted that I confront my mother, demanding that either she change her ways or she would not be permitted to have contact with her granddaughter. Your wife is 100% correct. Wanting to protect her child from a racist person is good parenting, particularly since your child is going to be bi-racial. How long until your mother starts making backhanded comments to this child about her mother, or her not being good enough, not being christian, etc. > [@](#): > > So you can see it is pretty complicated. I have done what my wife has asked and am not optimistic about what the consequences will be. I have chosen sides, but understandably feel pretty crappy about things…. This is not nearly as complicated as you’re making it out. As a data point, my SIL is from Japan. Her parents were…_not happy_ when she married my non-Japanese brother. Guess what - being told that they were going to change their behaviour or have no contact with their grandchild snapped them into shape in a hurry. **NOTHING** that your wife is demanding is unreasonable. Man up her and support the poor woman. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/45 "2010-02-16T16:26:24Z")
Tell Mom that if she doesn’t quit with the racist bullshit, she is not permitted access to the grandchild. Done. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/46 "2010-02-16T16:34:37Z")
> [@Endemic](#): > > OK, I deserve some chastisement here. But I did tell her off, twice! And both times you then reached back out to the hateful old bat after she chose to cut herself out of your life. When faced with the choice of letting her be a total crotch to your wife or being cut off from the harridan, you’re agonizing about the decision. These are actions that send a strong message to a spouse, and that message is _not_ “love me, love my dog.” (Note that this is an idiomatic expression, and I am not calling your wife a dog or implying that your mom has an obligation to actually love her.) Your wife is, well, the woman you love and chose to spend your whole life with and the mother of your child. Her position, that if she and her child are to be in contact with someone she must be treated civilly, is perfectly reasonable. She has put up with truly shameful treatment for the love of you. Your mother is, well, a racist old biddy. Her position, that if she is to be in contact with you she must be allowed to be a total crotch to your wife with no consequences whatsoever, is eminently unreasonable. She has already cut off contact with you, _twice_, rather than summon up some civil treatment for the woman you love. Speaking as a wife, I find it very worrisome that you have to think about this decision, much less have the level of angst evident in your posts. ---
**Author:** ![Orville\_mogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/aeb1de/32.png) [@Orville\_mogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orville_mogul)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/47 "2010-02-16T16:47:24Z")
Ok, I will accept my lashes for not being as assertive or as manly as I should. Most of the time when my wife expresses her hurt, I am right with her and want to do something about it. But I must admit a bit of self-doubt at times. Although my wife makes good points, she is one person, and my mother and brothers are three people. Three is more than one right? What if my wife is wrong, or had misunderstood, or is just paranoid and in fact her gripes are not really justified? I am not trying to rationalise here, but after 12 years of hearing the same arguments from my wife, am I really objective? And after 12 years of my family making their points, I kind of doubt myself sometimes. After being browbeaten by both sides for so long, I don’t know what is real or right anymore… ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/48 "2010-02-16T16:47:51Z")
You’re not a pacifist. You’re a wimp. Why did you look the other way when your mother insulted your wife? So you “told her off” twice? In a decade? So what? How many times did you keep quiet when you could have said “please don’t speak to my wife that way.” And your wife could have spoken up too. Did you discourage it? Are there cultural reasons why she might not have been comfortable with directly criticizing your mother’s behavior? If so, why didn’t you step up to the plate to help her out with that? Of course your mother is happy with the status quo. She gets to be as horrible as she wants to be and you let her. On one hand, denying your mother contact with her granddaughter seems extreme, but in light of what you’ve said, it could be a very good decision. Your wife is an adult and she was raised in her own culture, so she knows that your mother’s insults are bullshit, even though they wound her. A child won’t have those defenses. My paternal grandmother often insulted my appearance and I know how much harm it can do. It wasn’t that I was ugly. I just that my mother and I didn’t match her idea of how a “lady” should look. Including our bone structure! Fortunately, my parents were able to neutralize a lot of the damage. My father openly told his mom to stop when she did that stuff and when she wasn’t around, said that his mother’s opinions on these particular matters were ridiculous. So my grandmother found ways to say things to me out of their earshot. This was a much less extreme case than yours. Especially as the comments were much less frequent. Think about the damage your mother could do to your daughter. She will already look different than most of her peers. Your mother’s comments and barbs, whether directly to her or to your wife, will probably do severe damage to her self esteem. I’ll give you some examples of the kinds of things that she could say that would hurt your daughter deeply. (And I picked an ethnicity out of a hat for your wife to use for these examples–Your hypothetical wife is Vietnamese with typical physical characteristics and your daughter has typical features of someone with Vietnamese/White parentage.) –She should be careful not to get too much sun and make her skin even darker. –She should consider using rollers or getting a perm because her hair is so straight. –She should try to make her eyes look larger with makeup. –She should pad her bra so she doesn’t look so flat-chested. Plus, she could make comments about your wife’s accent, customs and living conditions in Vietnam, etc. Your wife is absolutely right on this one. I’d want to protect my daughter too. On preview: Your wife is what’s real and right. Sadly, your comments suggest that you’re not exactly 100% comfortable with her race and religion either. Damn, I feel so sorry for her. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/49 "2010-02-16T16:48:57Z")
> [@Endemic](#): > > My mom’s issues probably center around losing her son and resulted in her never accepting my wife, sometimes blatantly (“I don’t like that you married a non-Christian”) and but usually more subtly. I agree with what everyone else has said above, but what does “losing her son” mean? Do you have a brother who died? Or do you mean that she lost her son (you) when you married the wrong person? Because any mother who thinks she lost her son because of that is way out of line, and you’re out of line yourself if you agree with her. Really, this is an easy decision. All your mother has to do is keep her damn yap shut about certain topics when she’s in the presence of your wife or daughter. Anyone who is incapable of that deserves to get shut in a home. ---
**Author:** ![sandra\_nz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@sandra\_nz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sandra_nz)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/50 "2010-02-16T16:49:16Z")
You’re not a pacifist, you’re a wimp. [ETA: I swear I hadn’t read \*\*Green Bean’s \*\*message when I wrote that!]Sorry to put it so bluntly, but it’s the truth. You didn’t want to deal with conflict, so you took the easy route of trying to ignore it and putting off dealing with it. Time to grow a backbone, which it sounds like you’re really trying to do. One suggestion, and I don’t know whether you did this in your email or not, but you have to be \*\*really specific \*\*about what behaviours are and aren’t acceptable to you. By specific, I mean specific. Not ‘I don’t want you to be rude to my wife and if you are, we’ll leave.’ But ‘If you say _xyz thing that you have said in the past_ to my wife, we’ll leave.’ That way, there’s no room for interpretation. You’ve made it clear upfront what is and isn’t acceptable and she can decide whether or not to accept those conditions in order to maintain a relationship with you and your family. Also, you have to be prepared to end the phone call/leave the house/ask her to leave your house when she breaks the rules. Yes, she’s going to be defensive, yes, she’ll huff and puff and tell you you’re over-reacting. But once she realises that those are the rules she needs to follow in order to have an on-going relationship, she’ll hopefully start to toe the line. ---
**Author:** ![kathmandu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kathmandu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kathmandu)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/51 "2010-02-16T16:50:29Z")
Yeah, having heard the details, this question isn’t tricky at all. Your mother needs to be civil to your wife. If she chooses not to, she’s choosing the consequences. You need to stick up for your wife. It’s long overdue. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/52 "2010-02-16T16:53:48Z")
> [@sandra\_nz](#): > > Also, you have to be prepared to end the phone call/leave the house/ask her to leave your house when she breaks the rules. Yes, she’s going to be defensive, yes, she’ll huff and puff and tell you you’re over-reacting. But once she realises that those are the rules she needs to follow in order to have an on-going relationship, she’ll hopefully start to toe the line. Definitely. Assuming she agrees to your terms, make sure next time you visit you’ve got an escape plan in place. Because from the sounds of your mother and you, it’s about a 90% chance that she’ll decide you’re bluffing and break the rules the very first time. Just tell her “Sorry mom, I told you this was unacceptable.” pick up the baby, and leave. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/53 "2010-02-16T16:55:42Z")
> [@Endemic](#): > > Ok, I will accept my lashes for not being as assertive or as manly as I should. > > Most of the time when my wife expresses her hurt, I am right with her and want to do something about it. But I must admit a bit of self-doubt at times. Although my wife makes good points, she is one person, and my mother and brothers are three people. Three is more than one right? What if my wife is wrong, or had misunderstood, or is just paranoid and in fact her gripes are not really justified? > > I am not trying to rationalise here, but after 12 years of hearing the same arguments from my wife, am I really objective? And after 12 years of my family making their points, I kind of doubt myself sometimes. After being browbeaten by both sides for so long, I don’t know what is real or right anymore… Wow. You really are a wimp. Dude - you need to man up here. Regardless of what your mother is or isn’t saying, your wife is hearing it as insults based on previous insults your mother has directed her way. If you want marital bliss, you support your wife and tell your mother that the rude comments stop now. I don’t even know why you’re bringing your brothers into this - it’s like you’re trying to get support for your mom/bros when they are quite clearly in the wrong. Think about it - if a stranger made a comment to your wife or daughter about their race what would you do? How would you feel? Would you be upset? Now remember that things that come from a supposed loved one are 10 times worse than those from a stranger and imagine how your wife is feeling. ---
**Author:** ![fifty-six](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@fifty-six](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fifty-six)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/54 "2010-02-16T16:59:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What choice? You already chose, 12 years ago. Blood means little to nothing, compared o the family you make yourself. This is the way I feel. My parents have done their job ruining me. They don’t get to any more I have no obligation to allow it. Fuck blood. You mother has to suck it up or you cut her off. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/55 "2010-02-16T17:04:06Z")
I’m gonna give you the benefit of the doubt, OP, and assume that you’ve been dealing with your mother’s passive-aggressive bullshit, well, all your life. It can take years to come to realize that what a fucked up parent does is a) not normal and b) something you can and should stand up to. IF you’ve been dealing with parental abusiveness via accomodation, if that used to be a successful coping strategy, then yeah I can see where you’d continue to apply it as an adult. Of course, now this strategy no longer works. I know I’m making a lot of assumptions on your behalf, OP. I admit my own prejudices and presumptions. I also know from my own life how hard it can be to stand up to a parent, even when you’re a grown-up who should “know better”. But now you do know better, and so you can do better. I guarantee you your mom will have a spaz in an attempt to intimidate you back into the fold. Stand your ground. You are in the right. You don’t need to be drawn into her bullshit. You can be aware of your boundaries and enforce them calmly and assertively. Did I mention she’s gonna spaz? Know that, accept that, don’t be afraid of it. Apologize to your wife. Let her know that you did the best you could with the tools you had, but now you have better tools and will defend her and your own marriage better. You may want to consider couples counseling so you two can work together as a team better. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/56 "2010-02-16T17:09:29Z")
Oh, and it’s also ok if you have conflicting feelings of still loving your mother even though her behavior is horrid. And having conflicting feelings of not wanting to hurt her or end your relationship with her. Those are all ok to feel, but it doesn’t change the fact that you have a right, nay a duty, to put your foot down. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/57 "2010-02-16T17:16:00Z")
**endemic** , I’ll try to be a bit less harsh and say that you are probably approaching your mother with behavior patterns that you learned long ago. Now that your wife and child are in the picture, those old placating behaviors are leading to conflict on other fronts; they’re not working for you any longer. This is a tough situation for you to correct by yourself, since you’re going up against a lifetime’s habits. Therapy (by yourself, and possibly with your wife sometimes as well) can help you figure out new and healthier ways of dealing with the people in your life. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/58 "2010-02-16T17:29:38Z")
> [@Endemic](#): > > Most of the time when my wife expresses her hurt, I am right with her and want to do something about it. But I must admit a bit of self-doubt at times. Although my wife makes good points, she is one person, and my mother and brothers are three people. Three is more than one right? What if my wife is wrong, or had misunderstood, or is just paranoid and in fact her gripes are not really justified? The majority isn’t always right. A majority of Southerners were against interracial marriage at the time of the _Loving_ decision. They were wrong and the minority who were for it were right. Your mother and brothers are wrong. There is nothing wrong with marrying someone of a different race, ethnicity, or religion. There is something wrong with making negative comments about someone else’s race, ethnicity, or religion. There is something wrong with excluding someone from your life because of their race, ethnicity, or religion. My grandfather fought in the Pacific in WWII. He acquired a hatred of Japanese people from the experience. My uncle, his son, later married a Japanese woman. I don’t know if Grandpa ever really liked her, but as far as I know he was civil to her until he died. They were not excluded from my grandparents’ lives. If he could do it, your mom could do it too, if she wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/59 "2010-02-16T17:31:52Z")
I have a very, very similar situation and had to tell my mother to piss off. That was two years ago and our relationship has still not gone back to “normal” (whatever _that_ means). ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064/60 "2010-02-16T17:32:17Z")
> [@niblet\_head](#): > > I’m gonna give you the benefit of the doubt, OP, and assume that you’ve been dealing with your mother’s passive-aggressive bullshit, well, all your life. It can take years to come to realize that what a fucked up parent does is a) not normal and b) something you can and should stand up to. IF you’ve been dealing with parental abusiveness via accomodation, if that used to be a successful coping strategy, then yeah I can see where you’d continue to apply it as an adult. Of course, now this strategy no longer works. > > I know I’m making a lot of assumptions on your behalf, OP. I admit my own prejudices and presumptions. I also know from my own life how hard it can be to stand up to a parent, even when you’re a grown-up who should “know better”. > > But now you do know better, and so you can do better. I guarantee you your mom will have a spaz in an attempt to intimidate you back into the fold. Stand your ground. You are in the right. You don’t need to be drawn into her bullshit. You can be aware of your boundaries and enforce them calmly and assertively. Did I mention she’s gonna spaz? Know that, accept that, don’t be afraid of it. > > Apologize to your wife. Let her know that you did the best you could with the tools you had, but now you have better tools and will defend her and your own marriage better. You may want to consider couples counseling so you two can work together as a team better. What **niblet\_head** said. Your mother installed buttons on you, so she’ll know how to push them to try to bring you back in line. Your brothers are siding with your mom because she’s your mom and she raised them the same way she raised you, to heed your mother **because** _she’s your mother_ and you only ever get one and OMG I can’t go against my mother!!! Sure, she’s your mother. That doesn’t mean she can’t also be a cruel or racist person. Just because she gave birth to you and raised you doesn’t give her a free pass to be nasty to your wife. And I will bet you good money that if she’s allowed to continue with her behavior, she’ll start making nasty comments about your baby’s racial makeup and how certain (undesirable) things are Just Like Your Wife or Certainly Isn’t From OUR Side of the Family, and so on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tricky-and-sad-question-which-family-to-choose/529064.md?page=4)