# trigger happy kiddie soldiers? Rashak Mani **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382 "2005-03-07T16:35:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/41 "2005-03-08T00:45:47Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Hating the Bush Administration all of the goddamn idiotic, shortsighted, stupid, mucksucking, unethical things it’s done in the last four years isn’t the same thing as hating America. For the Bush-apologizing mouthbreathers of the Republican Right, it might as well be. This is a group that’s so fundamentally insecure that the very notion of anyone criticizing _anything_ about the government or the nation sends them into wild, mouth-foaming fits. Unless, of course, when it’s a Democrat involved. Then you can open fire with both barrels and they’ll cheer you on… ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/42 "2005-03-08T00:50:45Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Rather than argue whether the administration or the soldiers are culpable how about dropping the false dilemma entirely and place the blame on the Italians for not mentioning anything about it to the CIA? Maybe they just didn’t want to come off as > douchebags for funding Al Qaeda with another $1mn with which to buy arms from France. RedFury, take a valium. This anger will kill you. Maybe the US was pissed because for once it wasn’t _them_ giving cash and arms to terrorists. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/43 "2005-03-08T00:51:39Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Moron? Good to see your skills are growing every day. The quote in the OP was only one of many instances where it’s the American that’s doing wrong, not any particular scenario or party in charge. I took it to mean one example of **Rashak** ’s scripted rants, but maybe the OP was only speaking of that one time. Doesn’t matter as you’ve told me what we’re allowed to write about. :rolleyes: You really are as thick as two short planks, aren’t you? Yes, that quote did refer to certain Americans, without making reference to a specific party. But it was, contrary to your stupid assertion, a specific scenario—the scenario in which a group of American soldiers fired at an allied convoy, killing one person and injuring others. Making a criticism based on a specific incidence such as this is not the same as the blanket anti-Americanism that you and the other knee-jerk lobomites are accusing him of. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/44 "2005-03-08T00:56:09Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Making a criticism based on a specific incidence such as this is not the same as the blanket anti-Americanism that you and the other knee-jerk **lobomites** are accusing him of. That’ll teach me not to preview. I did, of course, mean “lobotomites,” as anyone with any experience of **duffer** will immediately understand. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/45 "2005-03-08T01:05:20Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > That’ll teach me not to preview. > > I did, of course, mean “lobotomites,” as anyone with any experience of **duffer** will immediately understand. It’s cute how you try to hijack threads into personal attacks on me. Well, here’s hoping you find something good in life to temper your rage. ---
**Author:** ![Well](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df788c/32.png) [@Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Well)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/46 "2005-03-08T01:09:37Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > They shouldn’t be shat on for no reason but they also shouldn’t be given passes just because of the job they are doing. Who in the hell is giving them a free pass? Just because not everyone jumps on the bandwagon that those soldiers should be automatically seen as immature triggerhappy psychpaths doesn’t mean anyone absolves them of anything. > [@RedFury](#): > > Fuck off, dipshit! What, US soldiers fuck-up – and they do so _frequently_ – and one’s not allowed to call them on it? It appears that in your increasingly militaristic society wearing an uniform is akin to having a licence to kill with impunity. Wave the flag, talk about some obscure goals somehow involving “freedom and the American Way” and blast anyone who gets in the way. Hell, it obviously doesn’t even matter if they are actually on your side. Yeah, some fuckin’ “heroes” these guys were. > > Fuck _them_ and fuck you! > > Hail, Bush! Do you have any proof they did anything wrong besides the obviously muddled account from a proven anti american Italian who says nothing but good things about her kidnappers even after the video shown of her begging for her life and then she tops it off with some innuendo that the kidnappers let her in on a little secret that the US doesn’t want let out without any clarification you assenine cow felcher? You say “fuck them” and you have no clue what it is they did. Yet you wish to jump on the liberal bandwagin that these soldiers should be considered guilty no matter who makes the accusations? Fuck you, Hail Saddam! > [@picker](#): > > What are you doing? Posting from the front lines? Oh don’t give me that “your a jingoistic patriot” accusation. Who in the fuck gave anyone a free pass? My father was 19, KIA, in Vietnam. My mother was 17, 14 month old son, 7 months pregnant with me. I think my credentials far outweigh yours that those sodliers standing on the front lines have a hell of alot more to worry about than missing fucking dessert. And I don’t give a good goddamn what your polotics are WRT to the war because it has nothing to do with the pitting or the quote now does it? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/47 "2005-03-08T01:14:56Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > It’s cute how you try to hijack threads into personal attacks on me. Well, here’s hoping you find something good in life to temper your rage. No rage. Just despair at your irredeemable thickness. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/48 "2005-03-08T02:23:22Z")
Paying members of the SMDB can check out all my posts through my profile if I’m not mistaken… 🙂 There is an awful lot of them. I don’t recommend. As for Debaser… its harder evertime not to mix anti-Bush and anti-Neo Con inflamatory with anti-americanism. I do confess to crossing that line quite frequently… but then in your view I suppose its all just anti-americanism. It must suck for rational americans to see those nice ideals stepped upon in the name of anti-terrorism. Its sad but I used to be quite pro-American before Bush at least for Brazilian standards. I knew it wasn’t all glitter… still it used to be quite common to use the US and less so european countries as a benchmark for certain standards… economic, development and humane. If the US politicians can get away with this much shit… we lose these references and feel that much frustrated about reforming our own country. (See US human right abuses reports on other countries and how easily they were dismissed by those with poor track records). ``` In a way a little idealism that still existed regarding a lot of things died in 9/11... and Osama wasn't the major responsible in that sense. So go figure how those who weren't that US friendly are right now. Military power only gets you so far... and the West stands divided. ``` ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/49 "2005-03-08T03:49:04Z")
**mhendo** , is the above enough cite for ya? > [@its harder ever\[y](#): > > time not to mix anti-Bush and antiNeo Con inflamatory with anti americanism. I do confess to crossing that line quite frequently… At least thickness gives me a little substance. Moron :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/50 "2005-03-08T05:19:06Z")
Well I’m getting into this late, but I’m happy about this pitting. I recognize that Rashak didn’t quite mean what he said, but the “trigger happy kiddie” comment was both thoroughly stupid and thoroughly offensive. This is a bloody guerrilla war and there are exactly two groups of people I have sympathy for: the Iraqi people and the soldiers. Everyone else can go to hell. > [@Rashak Mani](#): > > These US soldiers probably will get a reprimand and no dessert for a month slap on the wrist. Right because they lead such pampered lives right now. What are there like 180,000 U.S. troops over there with 11,000 wounded in combat and 1,150 killed in combat? Offhand that’s a ballpark ridiculous 7% casualty rate. Even if I’m off by a factor of two it’s still steep as hell. And it’s about 30 times the casualty rate in the first gulf war which was NOT a guerrilla war. I guarantee you lots of those kiddies will be coming home psychologically disturbed. Call Bush a trigger happy kiddie for getting us into this carnage, or the people who supported it, or me for not objecting to it, but as far as I’m concerned those “kids” are just trying to do their job and stay alive and making choices I would never want to fucking think about let alone make in all of two seconds. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/51 "2005-03-08T05:45:30Z")
In the unlikely event there’s a Bushbot or two interested in removing his or her head from their anal canal long enough to read some reality-based accounts of what is really going on at US-manned checkpoints and why this incident is more than likely just one more in pattern that’s been going on fopr quite some time – it’s only news because the victims were high-profile Westerners: [U.S. Checkpoints Raise Ire in Iraq](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/07/international/middleeast/07patrols.html?pagewanted=all&oref=login) > [@](#): > > \*\*Next to the scandal of prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib, no other aspect of the American military presence in Iraq has caused such widespread dismay and anger among Iraqis, judging by their frequent outbursts on the subject. Daily reports compiled by Western security companies chronicle many incidents in which Iraqis with no apparent connection to the insurgency are killed or wounded by American troops who have opened fire on suspicion that the Iraqis were engaged in a terrorist attack. > > Accounts of the incidents vary widely, as they have in the incident involving Ms. Sgrena, with the American command emphasizing aspects of drivers’ behavior that aroused legitimate concerns, and survivors saying, often, that they were doing nothing threatening. Since few of the incidents are ever formally investigated, many families are left with unresolved feelings of bitterness. > > American and Iraqi officials say they have no figures on such casualties, just as they say they have no reliable statistics on the far higher number of civilian deaths in the fighting that began with the American-led invasion nearly two years ago. But any Westerner working in Iraq comes across numerous accounts of apparently innocent deaths and injuries among drivers and passengers who drew American fire, often in circumstances that have left the Iraqis puzzled as to what, if anything, they did wrong\*\* Spin away. Won’t bring all those innocents, whose killings you continue to dismiss in myriads of childish ways, back to life. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/52 "2005-03-08T05:49:52Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Spin away. Won’t bring all those innocents, whose killings you continue to dismiss in myriads of childish ways, back to life. Well, considering you probably see Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin as right-wing nut jobs weakens your arguments. BTW, how did that whole communist thing work out for the workers in the USSR? :wally ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/53 "2005-03-08T05:57:14Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Well, considering you probably see Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin as right-wing nut jobs weakens your arguments. > > BTW, how did that whole communist thing work out for the workers in the USSR? :wally Stay on topic and answer the fucking question. If you can. ---
**Author:** ![Well](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df788c/32.png) [@Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Well)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/54 "2005-03-08T06:33:43Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > In the unlikely event there’s a Bushbot or two interested in removing his or her head from their anal canal long enough to read some reality-based accounts of what is really going on at US-manned checkpoints and why this incident is more than likely just one more in pattern that’s been going on fopr quite some time – it’s only news because the victims were high-profile Westerners: > > Spin away. Won’t bring all those innocents, whose killings you continue to dismiss in myriads of childish ways, back to life. Holy shit. You want a dose of reality of what is going on at checkpoints? [A suicide car bomb exploded Thursday at a checkpoint to the zone that houses U.S administrative offices in central Baghdad, killing six Iraqi civilians and one U.S. soldier, and injuring 25 people](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-05/06/content_328471.htm) - 2004-05-06 [Bomb kills 16 at checkpoint](http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/07/Worldandnation/Bomb_kills_16_at_chec.shtml) - October 7, 2004 [A suspected suicide bomber blew up his vehicle on the main road to Baghdad airport on Wednesday, killing an Iraqi security man and wounding at least seven civilians](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6316493/) - Nov. 3, 2004 [Sarmarra car bombs, attacks kill 27 in Iraq](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-11/06/content_389161.htm) - 2004-11-06 [Car bomb targeting Allawi kills three](http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=6561) - 1/3/2005 [Bombs kill 14 in Baghdad](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6727646/) - Jan. 19, 2005 [A suicide car bomb smashed into a checkpoint … Two people were killed and 10 wounded in the attack](http://www.smh.com.au/news/After-Saddam/Car-bomb-explodes-as-Zarqawi-declares-war/2005/01/24/1106415530633.html?oneclick=true) - January 25, 2005 [A car bomb has exploded near an Iraqi security forces checkpoint…killing at least one person and wounding three](http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7F797445-8612-41D7-A1B0-E6CCE39AC955.htm) - Sunday 13 February 2005 [Car Bomber Attacks U.S. Checkpoint in Iraq’s Ramadi](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=523964) - Feb 23, 2005 [Car Bomb Kills 115 In Iraq](http://kyw.com/iraq/iraq_story_059065801.html) - Feb 28, 2005 [Car Bombs Target Army Base, Checkpoint, Killing 10 Iraqi Soldiers](http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/0/03FFF3433DEDB476C2256FB800257414?OpenDocument) - 03 Mar 05 [Two car bombs have exploded near the Iraqi interior ministry (checkpoint) in Baghdad, killing five people](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4313773.stm) - Thursday, 3 March, 2005 [Al Qaeda in Iraq purportedly claimed responsibility in an Internet statement for much of the bloodshed that killed 15 people Monday in and around Baqouba, 35 miles northeast of Baghdad. The assaults included a car bomb, three roadside bombs and small arms attacks on three checkpoints](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/24/iraq/main541815.shtml) - March 7, 2005 And that’s just the forst 2 pages of google links. Bringing up such blatant danger is fucking childish? You are one delirious moron. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/55 "2005-03-08T06:38:32Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Well, considering you probably see Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin as right-wing nut jobs weakens your arguments. > > BTW, how did that whole communist thing work out for the workers in the USSR? :wally As I’ve often said – twice in this very thread – you lot are so predictable in your zeal to dismiss any wrongdoings by your nation and your Murderous Misleader & ruling cabal as to qualify for non-prescriptive sleeping aids: > [@RedFury](#): > > Spin away. Won’t bring all those innocents, whose killings you continue to dismiss in myriads of childish ways, back to life. Wake me up when you have something of substance to add. Although I’d give a fruitfly better odds of coming up with same. And for the record, I’m a politically independent Spaniard, with Socialist leanings. What that has to do with communist workers in the former USSR I have no idea. And neither do you. Which, in your case, is only par for the course. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/56 "2005-03-08T06:45:37Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Stay on topic and answer the fucking question. > > If you can. What question was I responding to in the quoted post? 😕 I’m off to punch my youngest Pug in the tit. It’s probably more productive than following your bait. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/57 "2005-03-08T06:57:53Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > And for the record, I’m a politically independent Spaniard, with Socialist leanings. What that has to do with communist workers in the former USSR I have no idea. And neither do you. Which, in your case, is only par for the course. Well, you got me there. I forgot to balance your other posts against the one’s that advocated anything but “socialism”. Euphemisms don’t work in this camp. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/58 "2005-03-08T06:59:52Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > My frustration with Rashak and his ilk is the tendency mentioned above…to automatically assume the worst and blame the soldiers. It is more convienient to their cherished stereotype to think of them as trigger happy idiots. …I suppose you can lump me in as one of **Rashak’s** ilk… my frustration with the likes of **Evil One** and his ilk is the tendency to do what you did in your post-take a statement and twist it completely out of context. **Rashak** says this: > [@](#): > > one more roadblock and trigger happy kiddie soldiers incident. He clarifies that to this: > [@](#): > > Short rewrite: Those soldiers are kids. They are awfully young. They haven’t been trained or enlisted for police duty… and certainly didn’t get adequate training or support to do it. I don’t think they enjoy killing iraqis (well most of them I suppose) or that they are callous or evil on purpose. Still that doesn’t change that they are killing and are being trigger happy. Insurgents car bombs just make 'em more jumpy. A not unreasonable position, don’t you agree? You twist it to this: > [@](#): > > think of them as trigger happy idiots. I don’t know where you get the impression that **Rashak** thinks the soldiers are idiots-would you like to show me where? Or how his position is unreasonable that the Americans are “trigger happy”, considering the evidence? Consider the incident that sparked the troubles in Falluja… (no not the one with the four security contractors that made headlines around the world) [http://hrw.org/reports/2003/iraqfalluja/](http://hrw.org/reports/2003/iraqfalluja/) 17 civilians killed, 75 wounded, no US casualties… Some conclusions from that report: > [@](#): > > The conclusions of Human Rights Watch’s investigation challenge some of the assertions made by the U.S. military. Significantly, Human Rights Watch did not find conclusive evidence of bullet damage on the school where U.S. soldiers were based during the first incident, placing into serious question the assertion that they had come under fire from individuals in the crowd. In contrast, the buildings across the street facing the school had extensive evidence of multi-caliber bullet impacts that were wider and more sustained than would have been caused by the “precision fire” with which the soldiers maintain they responded, leading to the civilian casualties that day. Witness testimony and ballistics evidence suggest that U.S. troops responded with excessive force to a perceived threat. > [@](#): > > The report also highlights some of the difficulties of putting a powerful combat force in a law enforcement role. The paratroopers of the 82nd Airborne had come straight from battle, having suffered casualties. Regardless of the possible responsibility of the individuals involved in the shooting that led to the killing of up to twenty and wounding of scores of others, one conclusion is inescapable. U.S. military and political authorities who placed combat-ready soldiers in the highly volatile environment of al-Falluja without adequate law enforcement training, translators, and crowd control devices followed a recipe for disaster. They entered a town that had to some extent been traumatized by the air campaign, and they apparently had not adapted to the post-conflict role of policing, crowd-control and community relations they were required to perform. The soldiers and commanders of the 82nd Airborne in al-Falluja lacked some of the key tools for an effective law enforcement mission. After you’ve read the entire report, the conclusion that the US troops were trigger happy in the incident would be fair, would you not agree? However, as **Rashak** said, its not the troops fault, would you agree on that? Or consider this HRW report… [http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq1003/](http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq1003/). Some case studies: [http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq1003/5.htm#\_Toc54183738](http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq1003/5.htm#_Toc54183738) > [@](#): > > They also called for back-up, and another police car, this one marked, was soon in the chase. At that point, the speeding cars came close to a U.S. military checkpoint with two tanks manned by solders from the 1st Battalion, 41st Infantry of the 1st Armored Division’s 3rd Brigade. Hearing shots and apparently not realizing who was who, the U.S. soldiers opened fire on the white Hyundai carrying the three police as the criminals in front sped away. Hamza `Atiya Muhsin told Human Rights Watch what happened next: > > -snip- > > I stopped the car on the side of the street. Meanwhile, the policeman in the back [Sgt. Muhammad Hilal Nahi] said “Hey, I think I’m shot in the hip.” One tank was to our side and another was behind but came up to us. Lt. ‘Ala’ opened the door and stepped out with his hands up. He threw his gun aside and said “No, police. No, police.” The distance between the tank and the car was about thirty-five meters. Then a bullet hit him in his right eye. He fell to the ground. I hid between the car seats. The tank was perpendicular to our car. I saw it and then I heard the Americans shouting very loudly. From the other police car, about twenty meters away, someone said on a megaphone, “no, police!” > > When I hid between the seats, there were shots at the car by the Americans. I didn’t know what happened to the policeman in the back. I got out of the car and I hid next to the car and took out my police badge. The Americans came, took my badge and hit me and beat me on my head with their weapons. They kicked me, cuffed my hands and kicked me twice in the face. Then they put their boot on my head. Then they took me to the tank. They kicked me again and they put me near the tank. Capt. `Ala’ came and told the Americans to give me to him. They refused. They told him they must take me to their base for an investigation, and they threw me in the tank. I saw them. They kicked Lt. ‘Ala’ as he lay there dead. The interpreter was with them. He told them that the victims were from the Iraqi police but they didn’t care. > > -snip- > > According to the military press office and the JAG, the investigation determined that soldiers of the 41st Infantry, had \*\*“acted in accordance with the rules of engagement.”\*\*61 A military spokesman later told the press that the unit involved was the 1st Battalion, 41st Infantry, part of the 1st Armored Division’s 3rd Brigade.62 Human Rights Watch also spoke with a U.S. Military Police officer who had knowledge of the case. He said the MPs conducted their own investigation because they were upset their trainees had been killed, but he did not comment about the beatings or the details of Lt. ‘Ala’s death. If we had a penny for everytime we heard “acted in accordance with the rules of engagement”… > [@](#): > > The same ritual took place on June 26. But on this night, a foot patrol of the 82nd Airborne was in the neighborhood, Hay al-Jihad, as young Muhammad went upstairs around 10:30 p.m. Apparently mistaking the bedding for a weapon, the soldiers shot Muhammad dead. Muhammad’s mother Wafa’ `Abd al-Latif told Human Rights Watch what happened next: > > ``` > I was downstairs. I heard the shot and Mustafa shouted “Muhammad!” We brought Muhammad downstairs and he was bleeding. I held him. The soldiers were moving around and when they heard the shot, they came here. Maybe they thought they had been attacked.64 > > ``` > > -snip- > > According to Major Jenkinson, with whom Human Rights Watch spoke briefly about the case, Muhammad was not holding bedding, but an assault rifle. “The kid had an AK-47 on the steps,” he said.68 > > “The soldiers determined the situation was hostile and engaged the individual,” U.S. military spokesman Maj. Sean Gibson told the press at the time of the incident. “It was not until after the search was under way that they discovered that it was an eleven-year-old boy.”69 > [@](#): > > A gray Chevrolet Malibu appeared from the other side of the alley, not from the main street. The Americans started waving for the car to stop, but it did not stop. One of the soldiers who was sitting on top of one of the Humvees turned his machine gun mounted on top of the Humvee and started shooting at the Chevrolet with the machine gun. There was more shooting, probably from one of the [other] soldiers. They hit the car from a distance of fifty meters. The front windshield of the car was full of bullet holes. As a result, the driver of the car lost control and the car stopped slowly after colliding with a Humvee. After the car stopped and the shooting ended, the driver got out of the car raising his hands, and seconds later he collapsed. The soldiers surrounded the car and took out the other passenger and they began to drag him in the street. This was done by one soldier who was pulling him by his shoulder, his legs were being dragged. They put him on the pavement next to a house under construction which belonged to Fahd al-Shajra, the former minister of education. > > -snip- > > The driver of that car was Muhanad `Imad Ghazal Ibrahim al-Ruba`i, seventeen years old. He told Human Rights Watch that he was driving with his younger brother Zaid, fourteen, and their cousin Fahd Ahmad, sixteen, to pick up food rations. U.S. soldiers were blocking the road with bricks and told him to turn around, so he took another street to the main road which seemed open. He asked some young Iraqi men if the road was clear and they said it was, as long as Muhanad drove slowly and stopped when ordered. He told Human Rights Watch what happened next: > > We started driving slowly towards the Americans preparing to stop, abiding by what the young men had informed us to do. But the soldiers were hidden on both sides of the street—we could not see them. We could see two Humvees a long way from us. One was parked on the pavement and the other was nearer to us but the road was not blocked. While we were driving slowly, and as we were approaching the Humvee nearer to us, there was an intensive shooting at our car from all sides and directions. When the shooting started I lowered my head so I lost control of the car. The car continued to move very slowly until it collided with a Humvee and stopped. Fragments from two bullets hit my head, so when I saw the blood flowing from my head I lost consciousness until the car collided with the Humvee and stopped. For that reason I did not know what had happened to my cousin, who was sitting next to me, or my brother, who was sitting in the back. Have you heard of John Simpson, from the BBC? He considers the US troops to be trigger happy as well… > [@](#): > > BBC news reporter John Simpson has hit out against the “trigger-happy” behaviour of US troops in Iraq and claimed he saved an old Iraqi man from being shot by gung-ho marines. > > The veteran reporter, who spent time with American forces in Tikrit, praised British troops for their conduct during the war but said in an interview with Soldier magazine that the Americans “lost control”. > > “They lost all control - screaming, shouting and kicking people,” Simpson said, adding that US soldiers’ fear of snipers led to a ‘shoot first, ask questions later’ attitude. > > “One of the marines shouted ‘Snipers!’ and put up his gun, pointing it at a man on a rooftop. I could see it was an old boy putting out a blanket to air and I said to him in a quiet voice that I would be the witness at his trial for murder if he pulled the trigger. He stopped,” said the BBC reporter. > **[Simpson berates 'trigger-happy' troops](https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/jun/05/broadcasting.Iraqandthemedia)** > > 11.15am: The BBC's John Simpson has hit out against 'trigger-happy' US troops in Iraq and claimed he saved an old Iraqi man from being shot by gung-ho marines. By Owen Gibson. (Free Reg required) …and of course you’ve read, by now, this article from the Christan Science Monitor… > **[What Iraq's checkpoints are like](https://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0307/p01s04-woiq.html)** > > Editor's note: On Friday, an Italian intelligence officer was killed and Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena was wounded as their car approached > [@](#): > > \*\*If it’s confusing for me - and I’m an American - what is it like for Iraqis who don’t speak English? \*\* Or how about here: > **[U.S. Checkpoints Raise Ire in Iraq (Published 2005)](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/07/world/middleeast/us-checkpoints-raise-ire-in-iraq.html)** > > Many apparently innocent Iraqis have been killed or injured at American checkpoints by soldiers wary that second's hesitation can mean death; accounts of incidents vary widely, with American command emphasizing aspects of drivers' behavior that... > [@](#): > > But many Iraqis tell of being fired on with little or no warning. > > Basman Fadhil, 29, a taxi driver interviewed Sunday in Baghdad, described driving home to the southern Doura neighborhood on Jan. 13. The power was out, as it often is in the capital, and the streets were very dark. He was only a block or so from his house when bullets shattered his windshield. “I thought it was thieves trying to steal my car, so I drove faster,” he said. > > One bullet struck him in the shoulder, causing him to crash into a concrete barrier. Getting out of the badly damaged vehicle, he staggered a few steps until American and Iraqi soldiers began yelling at him from the darkness not to move. When he asked the soldiers why they had shot at him, Mr. Fadhil said, they told him there had been gunmen in the area shortly before. > > -snip- > > The reports chronicled one incident in January at a checkpoint near the airport road when an American soldier fired at a car even though it was moving slowly and the driver was holding his identification card in plain sight out of the window. The soldier finally waved the car away and forced it to drive down the wrong side of a road. > > In early February, a private security company carrying Western clients was fired upon by American troops on the airport road itself. “This is the second time in three days,” the report on the incident noted. Later that month, a Western contractor approaching a checkpoint at roughly five miles an hour after dropping off a passenger at the airport heard gunfire, assumed he was coming under attack by insurgents and tried to speed away. > > But the fire turned out to have been from American troops, who fired warning shots, then hit the passenger side windshield, forcing the driver to stop, climb from the car and put his hands in the air. In statements released by the United States command about suicide bombings that it has foiled, the emphasis is usually on the graduated response. “A gray sedan broke through the stopped traffic and accelerated to about 40 miles per hour as it moved through an intersection,” said one of those releases, put out by the First Marine Expeditionary Force on March 2. > \*\*“Soldiers first used hand and arm signals, along with verbal commands, in an effort to get the driver of the vehicle to stop,” the statement said. “Soldiers fired in front of the vehicle to warn the driver to stop. They then fired into the engine compartment when it was about 25 meters from their position, which disabled the vehicle.” \*\* > > The vehicle caught fire and was rocked by a series of explosions, suggesting that the car had been rigged as a bomb, the release said. “The driver never exited the vehicle,” it concluded, indicating that he had been killed. Amazing. Lets just compare the bolded above, with the statement in the most recent incident: > [@](#): > > The incident occurred around 9 p.m. local time. A patrol in western Baghdad saw the vehicle speeding toward their checkpoint, a military official said. It attempted to warn the driver to stop with hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and firing warning shots in front of the car. > > When the driver didn’t stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others, the Army said. Looks like someones got their “stock” answer ready for any roadblock shooting, haven’t they? …and finally, this, from the NYT cite: > [@](#): > > Many Iraqi drivers complain that they know of no clear rules for dealing with American convoys. Reporters have listened as American officers brief armored-vehicle drivers before leaving United States bases on procedures for keeping civilian vehicles well back. Generally, the machine-gunner in the last Humvee is instructed to raise a clenched fist - a military gesture meaning “stay back” that few Iraqis understand - then to wave both arms, and **throw water bottles** or anything else available. Only then, the officers say, is the gunner authorized to open fire, first at the engine block, then at the driver. The best, most well funded military in the world, reduced to throwing water bottles for crowd control. Amazing. I wonder how close a car has to get that it is within range of a lobbed water bottle, yet is far enough away to not be a danger of being a suicide bomber? The shooting of the Belgium solder a few weeks ago again showed the US tendency to shoot first and ask questions later. One of the first things taught to any hunter, soldier, etc, is to identify your target. Granted, there are situations like in a firefight, ambush, etc, where maybe there honestly isn’t time to do that. But the United States were the official occupiers of Iraq, charged with protecting the Iraqi civilian population. The incident with the Italian jounalist didn’t highlight an abberation, it showcased to the world the reality many Iraqi’s are living through at the moment. The “nit-picking” of the Italian journalist’s testimony, considering that she has spent two months at the point of a gun, only to be released then wounded in an ironic twist of fate, and is probably pumped up on pain killers, is truly sad. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/59 "2005-03-08T07:21:40Z")
> [@Well](#): > > Holy shit. You want a dose of reality of what is going on at checkpoints? > > \\* > > And that’s just the forst 2 pages of google links. > > Bringing up such blatant danger is fucking childish? You are one delirious moron. Coming from braindead sheeple such as yourself, I’ll take that as a compliment. Meanwhile, allow me to remind you, that it is YOUR country through its blatant lies and distorsions that is directly responsible for creating the above outlined mess. It is also YOUR responsabilty, as an occupying force, to assure the safety of those under your rule. That you’ve failed misserably only underlines the precipitous an ill-adviced nature of the invasion. Having said that, no one is suggesting that manning said checkpoints is not a dangerous job. Clearly, it is. But just as clearly, your troops are doing a piss-poor job at it. I’ve already given you one cite stating why which you’ve obviosly chosen to ignore – or are unable to refute. Here are two more: [Shootings by U.S. at Iraq Checkpoints Questioned](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12507-2005Mar6.html) > [@](#): > > \*\* The deadly shooting of an Italian intelligence officer by U.S. troops at a checkpoint near Baghdad on Friday was one of many incidents in which civilians have been killed by mistake at checkpoints in Iraq, including local police officers, women and children, according to military records, U.S. officials and human rights groups. > > U.S. soldiers have fired on the occupants of many cars approaching their positions over the past year and a half, only to discover that the people they killed were not suicide bombers or attackers but Iraqi civilians. They did so while operating under rules of engagement that the military has classified and under a legal doctrine that grants U.S. troops immunity from civil liability for misjudgment. > > \ > > Military officials in Iraq have said for two days that they cannot answer questions about U.S. rules of engagement because of a need to keep insurgents off guard. Officials have not said whether these rules have changed since the insurgency in Iraq worsened in late 2003. They also have declined to estimate how many civilians such as Calipari have been killed accidentally by U.S. forces – at checkpoints or elsewhere in Iraq. > > But Army documents indicate that the 3rd Infantry Division – the military unit that includes the troops responsible for shooting Calipari – was involved in other shootings of civilians at checkpoints. In April 2004, Army criminal investigators asked a sergeant serving in the division if he and his fellow soldiers had shot at women and children in cars, and the soldier answered, “Yes.” Asked why, he replied, “They didn’t respond to the signs [we gave], the presence of troops or warning shots.” \*\* [Anger, confusion follow U.S. killing of Italian agent](http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/11067505.htm) > [@](#): > > \*\*The U.S. military said the car was traveling at high speed toward a “checkpoint” on the dangerous airport road about 9 p.m., and had failed to stop for soldiers flashing lights and firing warning shots. A military statement said the soldiers then shot at the car’s engine block, striking the occupants. > > However, Sgrena told Italian prosecutors yesterday that there was no checkpoint, Italian wire services reported last evening. > > “It was not a checkpoint, but a patrol that fired after having shone a floodlight at us,” she said, according to Italian news agency ANSA. “It is unclear where the bullets were coming from. We did not see any checkpoints.” > > Sgrena also disputed that the car was speeding. She was expected to publish her full account today in her newspaper, the Communist daily Il Manifesto. > > In its statements, the U.S. military did not describe the nature of what it called a checkpoint, such as whether it was marked or well-lighted. > > A U.S. spokesman in Baghdad said he had no further information. > > When stopping a car or investigating a possible bomb, U.S. patrols often set up makeshift checkpoints by parking humvees in the middle of a darkened highway and treating any vehicle approaching as hostile. Iraqi drivers sometimes do not realize they are upon a U.S. position until it is too late. > > Dozens - perhaps hundreds - of Iraqi civilians, including women and children, have been killed in the last two years after failing to stop while approaching military convoys or checkpoints, including at least nine in the last two months, according to news reports and U.S. military statements. Many such killings go unreported. \*\* Again, a mess to be sure, but one of your own making and one that some of you continue to support. Meanwhile, your nervous and trigger happy kids continue to mow down literally countless innocents. Just as the object of this worthless pitting originally stated. Want the criticism to stop? Simple really. Quit invading sovereign countries under false pretenses and outright lies. Surely you must know that war is hell…so why start a needless one? Specially one for whose aftermath you were so manifestly unprepared for. Each and everyone of you that supported this madness has, at the very least, some metaphorical blood in his hands. OTOH, as it´s more than likely, you´ll just sit there, mouth agape…just waiting for the next sugar-coated turd Jesus H Bush wants to plop into it. Enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![Well](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df788c/32.png) [@Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Well)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382/60 "2005-03-08T07:44:03Z")
> [@Banquet Bear](#): > > …I suppose you can lump me in as one of **Rashak’s** ilk… > The best, most well funded military in the world, reduced to throwing water bottles for crowd control. Amazing. I wonder how close a car has to get that it is within range of a lobbed water bottle, yet is far enough away to not be a danger of being a suicide bomber? > > The shooting of the Belgium solder a few weeks ago again showed the US tendency to shoot first and ask questions later. One of the first things taught to any hunter, soldier, etc, is to identify your target. Granted, there are situations like in a firefight, ambush, etc, where maybe there honestly isn’t time to do that. But the United States were the official occupiers of Iraq, charged with protecting the Iraqi civilian population. The incident with the Italian jounalist didn’t highlight an abberation, it showcased to the world the reality many Iraqi’s are living through at the moment. The “nit-picking” of the Italian journalist’s testimony, considering that she has spent two months at the point of a gun, only to be released then wounded in an ironic twist of fate, and is probably pumped up on pain killers, is truly sad. Well, I do put you of that ilk if you automatically assume the worst from the US soldiers by taking the word of someone who has “spent two months at the point of a gun, only to be released then wounded in an ironic twist of fate, and is probably pumped up on pain killers” and also who thanked her kidnappers for the way they treated her (I think she forgot how they made her beg for her life on camera). I get your point that you also are trying to use past “twists of fate” to support your idea that US soldiers shoot first and ask questions later. I don’t think that is anywhere near true considering the amount of US soldiers that died from attacks where they didn’t shoot first. You also have to take into account the abundant example of carbomb attacks that would make the soldeirs “triggerhappy”. Remember, they don’t have anyone to protect themselves from harm except their own actions. Unfortunately the civilians who get shot in those confusing instances have to pay for it. I will tell you right now that if I was a soldier in Iraq pulling duty at a checkpoint and had a suspicious car headed towards me that wasn’t obeying our signals and I had an order to shoot from my CO, I would most likely shoot and then ask questions. Call me triggerhappy, but I want to live and see my family. If you wouldn’t I highly doubt you would be lucky enough to make it home to yours. And about the remark about the waterbottles. In your selective perceptive mode I guess you missed the fact that throwing the bottles or whatever was near was meant to get the attention of the driver, not to hit them with. You know, kind of like how the most advanced military in the world waves their arms to get attention. :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trigger-happy-kiddie-soldiers-rashak-mani/293382.md?page=4)