# Trite SDMB arguments and John McCain. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374 "2008-04-07T19:57:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/61 "2008-04-08T22:35:23Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] > **[The tracks of her tears - Salon.com](https://www.salon.com/2008/01/13/commander_in_chief/)** > > New Hampshire Dems judged Clinton best qualified to be commander in chief. Working class voters backed her. So why does everyone want to talk about her tears? Plus: The Clintons and race. The point is his temper . I thought you could figure it out. This article is about some military people and the famous McCain temper. [/QUOTE] Eh. Clinton was famous for his temper, too. He seemed to have been a pretty good president. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2008, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/62 "2008-04-08T22:40:42Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] My father, who recently retired from a career in the State Department said that the same kind of attitude obtained in the DoS. Guys who had been in State forever and knew what they were talking about routinely had their opinions ignored in favor of the neocon agenda. Powell made _some_ efforts to talk sense into the administration (though not nearly enough and he folded too easily. The scuttlebutt in State was that he never really forgave them for hanging him out to dry with that UN presentation), but then Rice was given the job, thus ensuring that the White House would not be subjected to any opinion but its own. [/QUOTE] The oddest thing about the admin is how easily everyone folded for them. Even long careered famous people known for being badasses. IE Powell and McCain ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2008, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/63 "2008-04-08T22:49:44Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] No doubt. I think it might actually say something that he wasn’t able to control an outburts like that in public. I haven’t really bought in to the uncontrollable temper meme against McCain, but that thing with his wife is definitely something that you would expect him to be able to keep a lid on in public. [/QUOTE] And we’re accepting, uncritically, this story at face value? ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/64 "2008-04-08T22:51:06Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] She tousled his hair and he called her a trollop and a cunt? That’s a pretty standard MO for someone that hits their wife. If he can’t handle his wife playfully telling him that his is losing his hair, what else can’t he abide? [/QUOTE] Let’s recall that this is an anonymously sourced story. If true it makes him sound like a douche. But there’s no real proof that it is true. edit- or what Bricker said ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2008, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/65 "2008-04-08T23:08:56Z")
[QUOTE=stolichnaya] Let’s recall that this is an anonymously sourced story. If true it makes him sound like a douche. But there’s no real proof that it is true. edit- or what Bricker said [/QUOTE] Fair 'nuff. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/66 "2008-04-08T23:10:25Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] And we’re accepting, uncritically, this story at face value? [/QUOTE] Has he ever denied it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2008, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/67 "2008-04-08T23:18:44Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Well, frankly the assertion you made is unprovable, so offering me one video, even if it’s his first generally election campaign ad, isn’t going to do it. …If you want to play this ping-pong gaime, we can go back and forth for months. [/QUOTE] If you believe that this question is unprovable (hence, unfalsifiable) then your call for proof is little more than gamesmanship, no? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2008, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/68 "2008-04-08T23:49:58Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] If you believe that this question is unprovable (hence, unfalsifiable) then your call for proof is little more than gamesmanship, no? [/QUOTE] OR…SOP. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/69 "2008-04-09T00:10:29Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] The oddest thing about the admin is how easily everyone folded for them. Even long careered famous people known for being badasses. IE Powell and McCain [/QUOTE] Ruthlessness: he would stop at nothing. Completely power mad. You see someone like that, you quietly get out of the way, let the person get on with it, hope they don’t realize you’re over on the side, whistling. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/70 "2008-04-09T00:55:49Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] If you believe that this question is unprovable (hence, unfalsifiable) then your call for proof is little more than gamesmanship, no? [/QUOTE] What’s unprovable is the original assertion-- that he has a military mindset. It would be possible, though difficult, the prove the assertion that you made afterwards for which I said I’d was open to proof. If you’d like to prove that, we’d have to look at a shitload of material, not one commercial. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/71 "2008-04-09T01:53:46Z")
By thunder, you can split a hair like Lincoln split a rail! By any chance, were you educated by Jesuits? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/72 "2008-04-09T02:05:04Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Has he ever denied it? [/QUOTE] I have a sinking feeling you really think that’s a good argument. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/73 "2008-04-09T02:07:06Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] I have a sinking feeling you really think that’s a good argument. [/QUOTE] I figured it had to be parody. Chuckle-worthy, certainly. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/74 "2008-04-09T02:49:26Z")
Getting back to the OP, in general, calling someone a “chickenhawk” is not helpful. Unless of course, said person: 1. used his father’s connections to get out of serving in Vietnam 2. started a war of choice against a country that was no threat to us 3. subsequently spoke to the troops about how envious he was of their experiences, and 4. called fighting in a war "romantic. For that person, chickenhawk is too mild an insult. “Douchebag” seems to be a better fit. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/75 "2008-04-09T03:01:14Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] I have a sinking feeling you really think that’s a good argument. [/QUOTE] I was just being dry. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/76 "2008-04-09T03:10:58Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Heaven knows this place is full of repeated bad arguments, but in the last few years a couple have risen over and over again like belches on Taco Bell night. The first is that certain people, by virtue of having avoided service years ago, should be labeled as chickenhawks for advocating war now. The second is that the children of certain pro-war politicians ought to be convinced to serve, or even drafted…My sense at the time was that these were opportunistic attacks made not out of any great moral outrage but because they were easy ones to make against particular political opponents. So, since these won’t work against John McCain, others will be found. Certainly this seems to be the pattern so far. So let me get this straight. You raised this issue to 1) label your political opponents as hypocrites, and 2) to suggest that anti-McCain themes will be based on similar hypocritical snipes. First of all, my perception is that the “chickenhawk” label was applied not just to members of the Bush Administration and others who have strongly promoted military actions in recent years, but especially against hawks who’ve characterized their opponents as soft on terrorism/disloyal/traitorous etc. So I have a few questions for **Mr. Moto**. 1. Do you see any justification ever for criticizing hawks (whether or not they are outspoken about an alleged lack of patriotism by their opponents) for having avoided military service and who do not have family members serving in the military? 2. What hypocritical attacks do you see taking place against McCain, or are there unfair/hypocritical themes you anticipate occurring? 3. Assuming Obama is the Democratic nominee, do you anticipate attacks on his patriotism, and do you think those would be honest attacks or reflect political opportunism? If you’re going to trash other posters for alleged hypocrisy and for having plans for further hypocritical nastiness against McCain, you need to flesh out your charges with evidence. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/77 "2008-04-09T12:56:37Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] If you want to play this ping-pong gaime, we can go back and forth for months. [/QUOTE] I’m afraid that’s exactly what we’re in for, and not just in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/78 "2008-04-09T15:58:59Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] When predicting the future, I don’t see anyone as a “teller of truth”. Pat Buchanan\* is not an unbiased observer, and I don’t know what it means to be “hawkish” on China. I’ll ask again: Is McCain going to start a war with China? Is he going to take any military action against China? I highly doubt that. \*and calling him “right wing” in the sense that McCain is “right wing” is nonsense. They aren’t in the same wing. [/QUOTE] I never said Pat Buchanan is an unbiased observer. He makes his living as a biased observer. I said he’s a right-wing source. When you said it’s nonsense to call Buchanan “right wing”, I got a little dizzy from the spin. Buchanan and McCain are Republicans. I doubt that either man has voted for a half-dozen liberal candidates since they were old enough to vote. You say they aren’t in the same wing, but I have a problem visualizing the US as a Fokker tri-plane, with multiple wings on each side. When John McCain was in the military, being “hawkish” on China was pretty clear. China was supplying arms to one side of a war, so we spent a huge amount of blood and treasure to fight on the other side. Today, the first hawkish action that comes to mind would be sending arms to Taiwan, and ceasing to obediently refer to it as legally a part of China. I’m not hawkish myself, so this doesn’t come easily for me. You keep asking me if McCain is going to start a war with China, as though I were his confidant. I’m not. I never expressed any opinion on the subject. McCain himself is keeping his plans to himself, except for some hints that slipped out during campaign stops. Those hints are meaningless, of course. :rolleyes: McCain didn’t mean what he said, of course. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/79 "2008-04-09T16:02:55Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] Buchanan and McCain are Republicans. [/QUOTE] Actually, Buchanan [left the Pubs in 1999](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Buchanan#2000_Reform_Party_Presidential_Run) to join (and try to take over) the Reform Party; and after the RP broke up, he formed his faction into the new [America First Party.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_Party_(2002)) ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374/80 "2008-04-09T16:14:36Z")
[QUOTE=Frostillicus] Getting back to the OP, in general, calling someone a “chickenhawk” is not helpful. Unless of course, said person: 1. used his father’s connections to get out of serving in Vietnam 2. started a war of choice against a country that was no threat to us 3. subsequently spoke to the troops about how envious he was of their experiences, and 4. called fighting in a war "romantic. For that person, chickenhawk is too mild an insult. “Douchebag” seems to be a better fit. [/QUOTE] Well whoever you’re talking about, he’s not fit to be President! Anyway I don’t know why Mr. Moto is defending McCain. It came out when McCain was fighting Bush Senior in 1999 that McCain: - had fathered a black child out of wedlock - had a drug addict wife wife - was a homosexual - was a “Manchurian Candidate” traitor i.e. mentally unstable from his North Vietnam POW days These statements came from **Republicans** , so they must be true. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trite-sdmb-arguments-and-john-mccain/444374.md?page=5)